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Zeno's Paradox

Samuel Locke
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Posted 10/20/09 - 07:13 AM: Subject: Zeno's Paradox	#1
Expanding on the wall of bricks this paradox essentially states that it is impossible to get from one point to another consequential of the fact that there are infinite points between them. Somehow we manage to trek the distance of one point to another. How is this possible? For example simply counting from one to two is seemingly impossible for there are an infinite amount of decimals in between. It appears to me that since we can count from one to two, that there must be a finite number of decimals. This of course is contradictory to popular thought. What are your thoughts on this mind boggling paradox?

James S Saint
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Posted 10/20/09 - 08:14 AM:	#2
Samuel Locke wrote: Expanding on the wall of bricks this paradox essentially states that it is impossible to get from one point to another consequential of the fact that there are infinite points between them. Somehow we manage to trek the distance of one point to another. How is this possible? For example simply counting from one to two is seemingly impossible for there are an infinite amount of decimals in between. It appears to me that since we can count from one to two, that there must be a finite number of decimals. This of course is contradictory to popular thought. What are your thoughts on this mind boggling paradox? The paradox, as all paradoxes, tricks the mind into accepting a false assumption. The impossibility appears only because the mind has accepted that one must "take the time" to count. In fact, the time to count in normal use is zero and thus you have, in reality, "0 * infinity = 0" as the time it took for you to count all of those numbers between 1 and 2. The same for Zeno's other paradoxical thoughts. I persoanlly have an ongoing dispute with the system of mathematics in several regards, one of which is that "0 * infinity must = indeterminate" rather than merely 0, but that is a deep and long discussion.

mattmark
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Posted 10/20/09 - 08:35 AM:	#3
FYI, this topic is already being explored in one of the epistemology threads: http://forums.philosophyforums.com...radox-of-motion-35111.html

Dragohunter
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Posted 10/20/09 - 09:20 AM:	#4
The assumption is falso if there are no infinite amount of distance between two points of spacetime. Mathematics is a language we use that coincides really well with our understanding of the world, but it is not a perfect language and we can not rely on it for the basis of all truth. (Godel's incompleteness theorem proves how mathematics can't be reduced to basic forms of logic) There is a theoretical smallest length in spacetime, the planck length. (during which a photon can travel in a nanosecond)
"Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein

James S Saint
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Posted 10/20/09 - 11:27 AM:	#5
Dragohunter wrote: The assumption is falso if there are no infinite amount of distance between two points of spacetime. Mathematics is a language we use that coincides really well with our understanding of the world, but it is not a perfect language and we can not rely on it for the basis of all truth. (Godel's incompleteness theorem proves how mathematics can't be reduced to basic forms of logic) There is a theoretical smallest length in spacetime, the planck length. (during which a photon can travel in a nanosecond) This is merely one of those typically false pseudo-intellectual excuses to get out of the question. By definition, regardless of any quantum concerns, every 2 points have an infinite number of points between them.

Dragohunter
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Posted 10/20/09 - 11:33 AM:	#6
James S Saint wrote: This is merely one of those typically false pseudo-intellectual excuses to get out of the question. By definition, regardless of any quantum concerns, every 2 points have an infinite number of points between them. If spacetime is really discrete, there are no infinite number of points between two locations because the point can't be defined. Mathematic arises from calculations of the perceptions spacetime gives, you can't remove physics from truth. Do you see how ridiculous your argument is?
"Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein

James S Saint
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Posted 10/20/09 - 05:07 PM:	#7
Dragohunter wrote: If spacetime is really discrete, there are no infinite number of points between two locations because the point can't be defined. Mathematic arises from calculations of the perceptions spacetime gives, you can't remove physics from truth. Do you see how ridiculous your argument is? It is typical for quantum magicians to teach cause and effect backwards just to keep up the belief in magic. Mathematics did not arise from perceptions concerning spacetime. It would not matter in the slightest what any scientist ever observed, you cannot have a "discrete" anything without having "points" between the discretions else it could not be discrete. And no, I see how seriously amateur your argument is.

Cadrache
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Posted 10/20/09 - 05:21 PM:	#8
I'm placing a cup of milk in front of this argument.
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion. _____________________________________________ Truth is want. - The internal state of matters. Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.

Dragohunter
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Posted 10/20/09 - 06:13 PM:	#9
James S Saint wrote: It is typical for quantum magicians to teach cause and effect backwards just to keep up the belief in magic. First off I am talking about unified theory and quantum mechanics is one of the most influential and important theories to all scientists and philosophers. What your saying is absolutely ridiculous. Mathematics did not arise from perceptions concerning spacetime. Your not making much sense. Mathematics arise from our understanding of space and time as it is the study of quantity, structure, space, and change. It is also by the use of abstraction and logical reasoning, mathematics evolved from counting, calculation, measurement, and the systematic study of the shapes and motions of physical objects. These are all elements or properties provided by spacetime. If you were to say mathematics did not arise from perceptions concerning spacetime, that would mean spacetime has no such purpose in mathematics, which is the opposite of what is true. It would not matter in the slightest what any scientist ever observed Science has no purpose in truth? -_-; you cannot have a "discrete" anything without having "points" between the discretions else it could not be discrete. Formed from our perceptions of the world, which may be wrong? Aristotle believed that you could divide matter infinitely from a "common sense" mathematical understanding of the world, he was wrong. And no, I see how seriously amateur your argument is. You haven't showed me in the slightest why you think so. So far you have no proof, no clarifications, you called quantum mechanics "magic", mathematics does not come from our notion of spacetime which is ludicrous, and what scientists have to say "meaningless and irrelevant". Edited by Dragohunter on 10/21/09 - 10:38 AM
"Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein

Samuel Locke
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Posted 10/20/09 - 07:23 PM:	#10
I too am interested in your thoughts on this subject James S. Saint.

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