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Zeno's Paradox

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Zeno's Paradox
Cadrache
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Posted 10/26/09 - 07:34 PM:
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#21
Example 1:

All addition is illogical because of equivalancy.

1 + 2 = 3

Because of the law that states that 3 cannot have no division within itself - you cannot claim the division inherent with adding 1 and 2 together as being equivilant to 3.


Example 2:

We have this here graph showing that for every orange you have: you have one apple.


I place an orange on the table and claim "This is your orange."

You however cannot determine how many apples you have. The only observable is the orange peeling.
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion.
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Dragohunter
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Posted 10/27/09 - 09:29 AM:
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#22
No, there are axioms that we follow logically and how we relate to the world without proving certain cases with radical justification or demonstration. Axioms are formed by observations. neutral Of course, you could go into a discussion of disproving axioms but you haven't done that yet.

Edited by Dragohunter on 10/27/09 - 11:35 AM
"Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein
Samuel Locke
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Posted 10/27/09 - 10:47 AM:
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#23
Cadrache wrote:
Example 1:

All addition is illogical because of equivalancy.

1 + 2 = 3

Because of the law that states that 3 cannot have no division within itself - you cannot claim the division inherent with adding 1 and 2 together as being equivilant to 3.



I fail to follow your logic. I have two apples. I then and go pick another apple off the tree. I now have three apples. That seems pretty logical to me.
Dragohunter
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Posted 10/27/09 - 11:41 AM:
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#24
Cadrache wrote:


We have this here graph showing that for every orange you have: you have one apple.

I place an orange on the table and claim "This is your orange."

You however cannot determine how many apples you have. The only observable is the orange peeling.


That is much like saying you can not tell if something contains life unless you rip it apart and view its cells microscope. We understand the world through perceptions of causal relations. You say the only observation is the orange peeling, but you also have information from reading the graph with your senses. Either you have to say the graph is false or it somehow relates to the world.

What I understand is that you're trying to say that the graph directly does not correspond to the world. Just because the graph shows there's a orange for every apple, doesn't mean that there is physically an apple if you see an orange. You can not deduct the existence of an apple by looking at an orange. This however, is an induction not a deduction. Induction relies on the clarification of the deduction process by infering to observations and experiences. Observing an orange does not infer the existence of an apple as your senses are only perceiving an orange. But if you understand relations between objects and ideas, you can still deduce the idea that there is an apple somewhere in relation to the orange you are looking at relying on the information you have from the graph.

And this is my 100th post. smiling face

Edited by Dragohunter on 10/27/09 - 11:55 AM
"Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein
Cadrache
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Posted 10/27/09 - 06:26 PM:
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#25
shaking head

Close Dragonhunter. I'm making another odd claim that the cartesian graph does not adhere to logic.

[quote]the world through perceptions of causal relations.[/i] Reduce the ideology of 'world' perception.


What I might claim is that the graph relates to the double negative of a specific pair of nonsense relations.


The problem with the cartesian graph system is this. If you have 10 oranges graphed - and you remove 1 orange the x-orange relation does not alter. We simply claim that the function still allows for 10 quantities of oranges even though in reality the graph should now represent at most 9 quantities of oranges. What we sum up as f(x) - 1 is in truth a nonsense logic. We cannot claim that the logic between reality-grid exists if we do not create a completely different grid each and every time we change the number of oranges.

PS: If you don't get this don't worry, and just ignore it. You might come accross the correct thought pattern some day in the future.
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion.
_____________________________________________

Truth is want. - The internal state of matters.

Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.
Arkady
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Posted 10/27/09 - 07:12 PM:
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#26
I'm more interested in Xenu's paradox: how could he have flown all of those aliens to Earth in a jumbo jet?
"Sit down before fact like a little child, and be prepared to give up every preconceived notion. Follow humbly wherever and to whatever abyss Nature leads, or you shall learn nothing."
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Cadrache
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Posted 10/27/09 - 07:29 PM:
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#27
Simple. Just ask this question.

How many dents are on the outer hull of the jumbo jet after Xenu flew all those aliens?


shaking head
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion.
_____________________________________________

Truth is want. - The internal state of matters.

Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.
Dragohunter
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Posted 10/28/09 - 09:28 AM:
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#28
Cadrache wrote:
shaking head

Close Dragonhunter. I'm making another odd claim that the cartesian graph does not adhere to logic.

[quote]the world through perceptions of causal relations.[/i] Reduce the ideology of 'world' perception.


What I might claim is that the graph relates to the double negative of a specific pair of nonsense relations.


The problem with the cartesian graph system is this. If you have 10 oranges graphed - and you remove 1 orange the x-orange relation does not alter. We simply claim that the function still allows for 10 quantities of oranges even though in reality the graph should now represent at most 9 quantities of oranges. What we sum up as f(x) - 1 is in truth a nonsense logic. We cannot claim that the logic between reality-grid exists if we do not create a completely different grid each and every time we change the number of oranges.

PS: If you don't get this don't worry, and just ignore it. You might come accross the correct thought pattern some day in the future.


No I understand.raised eyebrow But a graph is just an abstract representation of a set of numbers where some pairs of the numbers are connected by links. Just because it is considered nonsense as a physical representation doesn't adhere to its usage. You can still use it well as a model to peform logic (at a lower level)
"Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein
Cadrache
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Posted 10/28/09 - 02:23 PM:
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#29
Look at it with this analagy.

You push a ball with a pencil. We claim that any function applied to the pencil can be translated to the ball for any movement that the ball does.

We then claim that the pencil is incapable to touch the ball. As such any thing you do to the pencil cannot affect the ball.



In other words - whatever truth you derive from a cartesian grid is independent from the correct object physicality orientation to actually claim it as a logical statement. When you claim that you observe 9 oranges and 9 apples - the observation is flawless.

The claim that you have 7 apples because your graph states you have 7 oranges is not logical. Perception of the graph is merely looking at some thing that does not reflect reality. Conclusions from the perception of something that does not reflect reality is then illusion.

Or ideals of "This dog is black because that cat is orange."
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion.
_____________________________________________

Truth is want. - The internal state of matters.

Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.
Willowz
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Posted 11/14/09 - 06:19 PM:
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#30
In direct response to post 14. So... logic can't be refuted? I don't see how you can state "mathematics" was created not discovered. Because if you don't know what is not logic because thoughts operate only by logic, then how could you make such an assumption about mathematics? Thanks for any replies.

Edited by Willowz on 11/14/09 - 06:29 PM
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