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writing songs
how (ought?) lyrics are formed

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writing songs

litkey
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Posted 09/13/06 - 08:38 AM: Subject: writing songs	#1
I write lyrics for a band, and the question i have is where do lyrics come from, i certainly don't think there is a conscious and intentionality behind it- especially not how i write (stoned,drunk, etc.,) It seems that a great aspect of song writing is done with a flow and without thinking too much; i feel that writing ought to be done in this way- to think too much about it can cause dullness and non-creative lines; there is also EXPERIENCE that causes songs, and these are a prerequisite to a really good song- those who think they can write are at a nought if they don't have the wheels of experience. any thoughts on this? + if you would like to hear my band and lyrics give me a shout.
That's what tyrants get! - John Wilkes Booth Something cannot come from nothing. Nothing can only come from nothing.

Reformed Nihilist
Oblong

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Posted 09/13/06 - 09:05 AM:	#2
I think it is extremely limiting to take this approach in a pure sense. Sure, accessing stuff in your subconscious can lead to things you wouldn't get by intentionally crafting, but it also can lead to garbage, and certainly doesn't offer a method by which you can create well with any sort of consistency. A good artist isn't someone who can produce one good peice of art, but someone who consistently produces good art, and with very rare excepetions, this requires some method. If nothing else, there are conscious methods you can use to develop your non-conscious responses, but I still recommend veiwing whatever comes pouring-out-of-you-without-thinking with a critical editorial eye. However, if you feel that what you do works for you, then continue doing what you're doing...these are just my 2 cents on the matter.
Nobody ever became a famous philosopher by being a champion of ecumenical hybridism Daniel Dennett Freedom Evolves

notquitethere
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Posted 09/13/06 - 03:18 PM:	#3
Surely by thinking up clever lines you can avoid dullness. Dullness which might occur due to trite phrasing of thoughts as they come. For instance, "I want a sandwich" was the first thing that popped in my head just now. This was presented staight-off with the phrasing "I want a sandwich", which is a bit boring. Now with a little editing, and a critical eye, I turn it into: "I yearn still for a sandwich". While not perfect, it's a little more intersting than the first wording that popped in my head, whilst the thought is still the pure thought that I head at the time, only worded differently.
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wojti
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Posted 09/14/06 - 05:29 AM:	#4
I have been a singer in different bands (always writing my own words) for more than 10 years +I'm a university lecturer on literary theory and I sometimes try to theorize what I do in a band etc. (not very often, too much theory destroys the fun of making music). In my case the best lyrics and vocal patters come from an improvisation during rehearsals. The guys play the music and I start to sing just 'something', much in an 'automatic writing' style of the surrealists. I always sing in English, although it is not my mother tounge, and maybe because of that I don't hesitate to start with something which is a pseudo-English verbal magma. After a while some words emerge and I usually get a catchy phrase or a chorus to which I add at home the rest of the lyrics (following the general mood of what I created at the rehearsal). This is what I do and, like I said, it usually works for me, although I wouldn't dare to say that this is the way things OUGHT to be done.

Goaswerfraiejen
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Posted 09/14/06 - 01:26 PM:	#5
Not thinking about what you are writing is good for brainstorming--if you're trying to give your songs some kind of depth, however, you'd best not leave it at that. Songs are poetry that is meant to be heard: I don't think that the writing process should be significantly different. Indeed, I demand high-quality lyrics from the music that I listen to.

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Oblong

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Posted 09/14/06 - 01:51 PM:	#6
Part of the issue is that the standard for lyrics in pop music is much lower than the standards for any other literary style. The only lyrics that I am aware of that capture the surrealist style are those by Frank Black.
Nobody ever became a famous philosopher by being a champion of ecumenical hybridism Daniel Dennett Freedom Evolves

nixnxin
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Posted 09/15/06 - 01:45 AM:	#7
The reason why we may think "bubblegum pop" and such is low, silly or superficial is, I think, because we tend to mistake it for literature rather than pop lyrics. But, unlike in literature, the primary purpose of a pop lyric is the way it sounds; not what it says verbally. It is therefore wrong, I think, to compare pop lyrics with literature with a standard that comes from literature.

LonesomeDrifter
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Posted 09/15/06 - 08:18 AM:	#8
litkey wrote: I write lyrics for a band, and the question i have is where do lyrics come from, i certainly don't think there is a conscious and intentionality behind it- especially not how i write (stoned,drunk, etc.,) It seems that a great aspect of song writing is done with a flow and without thinking too much; i feel that writing ought to be done in this way- to think too much about it can cause dullness and non-creative lines; there is also EXPERIENCE that causes songs, and these are a prerequisite to a really good song- those who think they can write are at a nought if they don't have the wheels of experience. any thoughts on this? + if you would like to hear my band and lyrics give me a shout. To take a Foucauldian, and I think quite accurate look at it, writing lyrics, authorship, is not creative genius. Rather, it is in a sense openning up to your social and cultural situation such that they may stream through you into your works (which they do whether or not you want to). So, I think the way you are doing it is okay (no comment on drugs). I was watching the very excellent Martin Scorsesse film on Bob Dylan, and they imply just this. Bob Dylan could not have written "how many roads must a man walk down" today. Both because it would not mean the same things, and because it would not occur to Bob Dylan to write it. Bob Dylan always got pissed off at the media for asking him what his songs meant. His songs are really much deeper than that, and they are not truly the result of creative genius, although that definitely was part of it (he was a genius), but they were the result of his openning up to the societal situation in which he found himself, and letting this thoroughly imbue itself in his lyrics.
"Social agents are determined only to the extent that they determine themselves." -Pierre Bourdieu "The possible ranks higher than the actual." -Martin Heidegger "Power is everywhere: not that it engulfs everything, but that it comes from everywhere." -Michel Foucault "Never stay up on the barren heights of cleverness, but come down into the green valleys of silliness." -Ludwig Wittgenstein

Petunia
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Posted 09/15/06 - 10:53 AM:	#9
litkey wrote: It seems that a great aspect of song writing is done with a flow and without thinking too much; i feel that writing ought to be done in this way- to think too much about it can cause dullness and non-creative lines;... I believe one reason the creative process eludes so many people is because it requires the ability to look at the process from different angles. What you are talking about is one valuable aspect of creating. What stops many people from trying is this "overthinking" and an overly critical perspective that gets a person so tightly wound that the ideas get trapped. You describe a non-judgmental, let-it-be approach and that is the first step. Creating something of value is not about only coming up with good ideas... it is about coming up with many ideas and selecting only the best ones. This is where we must change hats if we are to reach our potential. Once we have raw material to work with, then there is a process of almost merciless critiquing that comes into play. I used to throw away at least 80% of everything I composed when I first started. The final product of what we create should contain an expression that matches our best perceptions. There should not be one note, one word that is not the ideal choice in that instance. Going back and forth between the easy going "let it flow doood" and the merciless critic is not easily learned and takes practice, but it is the necessary process for creating art.
Peer over the precipice

insight
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Posted 10/10/06 - 02:59 PM:	#10
i think lyrics should be written the same way as retoric. the best lyrics use the same devices as a formal speech. the best way, i think, to learn how to write lyrics is by reading speeches from Patrick Henry to Dr. King.

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