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 Why Pure Altruism | |
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Tyranosopher
banned Usergroup: Members Joined: Jul 07, 2009 Location: High Mountains Somewhere Total Topics: 5 Total Posts: 66
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 #1
Subject: Why Pure Altruism Why Altruism There are many forms of altruism. Some are reflections of self interest, and are well known. I want to point to something else. Pure altruism is real. We are born with it. It comes from the necessity, for primates of the baboon type, or superior social carnivores, to engage in lethal actions to protect the group. This instinct had 50 million years to develop itself, and even more for social carnivores. Now human beings descend directly from ferocious carnivorous primates (so are already chimps, and, deeper in evolution, baboons), and had plenty of time to contemplate how social carnivores (hyenas, lions), did it (thus creating epigenetic pressure from mere observation). This profoundly altruistic instinct led to feeling the pain of the group, and putting the group over oneself. Thus it is related to the fascist instinct (where the group unite against the common threat, behind the leader, as if one were just one). In any case, pure altruism leads to a pleasure complex which entice the participant in the suicidary charge. Van de Waals objected that the "warm glow" altruism may provide with does not survive a suicide attack against the enemy. But this is irrelevant: pleasure leading an individual into an action does not come after the action. It exists before the action. Whether action will result in termination is irrelevant, if the pleasure the action brings is great enough. In my set-up, ironically, altruism comes from the necessity for the social group to turn its own elements into suicide attackers. But this is mathematically compelling: bees, among others, evolved that way, independently of advanced mammals (they die after stinging). How is pure altruism perceived by the individual? Well, an example would be parental love. I have a one year old daughter. She is obviously much more precious to me than myself and I. That was a surprise to me. I expected more of an equality. My personal survival has become important, first of all, because she needs me. This is how I perceive it. And I always perceived myself as a happy colossus of selfishness. Or used to feel so. But no more. Patrice Ayme |
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Unexpiritualized
PF Addict  Usergroup: Sponsors Joined: Jul 28, 2010 Location: Earth. Total Topics: 60 Total Posts: 1025 |
#2
Because we are social animals, I guess. If we were pure selfish we all would be insane, crazy. A normal person gives as much as he takes. And an extremly selfish person only takes so the circle is not round, he/she becomes crazy, insane. The person becomes neurotic. You work, so you give, no? You love your kid so you give, no? Anxiety, sadness or depression, anger, irritability, mental confusion, low sense of self-worth, etc., behavioral symptoms such as phobic avoidance, vigilance, impulsive and compulsive acts, lethargy, etc., cognitive problems such as unpleasant or disturbing thoughts, repetition of thoughts and obsession, habitual fantasizing, negativity and cynicism, etc. Interpersonally, neurosis involves dependency, aggressiveness, perfectionism, schizoid isolation, socio-culturally inappropriate behaviors, etc... |
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duszek
little ghost Usergroup: Members Joined: Sep 21, 2009 Total Topics: 2 Total Posts: 267 |
#3
This self-secrificing altruism must be genetically based. But how can individuals who die for the group procreate and get chosen as partners ? Did they procreate before the suicide to save the group ? I see a logical problem here. |
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BitterCrank
PF Addict  Usergroup: Sponsors Joined: Mar 01, 2008 Location: Minneapolis Total Topics: 101 Total Posts: 5251 |
#4
I agree with you that altruism is real. Whether there are any "pure" motivations in human behavior is questionable. I doubt it. I would say that we have many emotions, many motivations, and they are all modulated, strengthened, weakened, suppressed or expressed according to circumstance. Let's set aside the behavioral evolution business: for one thing, baboons (and all other non-sapien primates) pursued their own evolutionary histories for the last several million years. The similarities don't matter in this discussion. Likewise, whatever happened 50 millions years ago with social carnivores is pretty murky to us now, and are peripheral. The suicide attacker business... I don't know how that works. I mean I literally do not know how that works, because I'm still here -- so are you. My guess is that suicidal behavior has never figured extensively into group survival, because it is just way too costly. Better for the group to resort to flight when fight is going to result in annihilation. While there are group survival strategies, individual survival is probably stronger for most individuals. None the less, I would agree that sometimes individuals sacrifice themselves on behalf of the kinship group. In stating this, though, I would exclude suicide bombers who require a great deal of preparation (aka brainwashing) to pull off their actions -- especially when the targets are ordinary civilians or merely members of a different sect. A suicidal attack against Adolf Hitler is one thing, a suicide attack against one variety of Islam by another variety of Islam is just stupid, vile, evil, lunatic. So, altruism: Yes, definitely a factor in any human community. But so is selfishness -- the two, altruism and selfishness, operate together and are both modified by other motivations, emotions, and thoughts. You, and everyone else, have strong self-centered motivations; but that is just one strand among many. As you discovered, your child has brought other strands into active play, like parental love. |
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Tyranosopher
banned Usergroup: Members Joined: Jul 07, 2009 Location: High Mountains Somewhere Total Topics: 5 Total Posts: 66
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#5
To duszek: 1) There is too much emphasis on "genes". 25,000 genes do not a social animal make. First there are other inheritable geometrical structures (RNA, prions, cellular architecture). Thus the failure of translating genomics into treatments: most effects are multigenic. Thus genes may be thought more as DIMENSIONS than little selfish beings running us from inside(as Dawkins has it, with his "selfish gene" idea). 2) Thus inheritable characteristics are inheritable differential manifolds. So altruism is a manifold. Label it A. Now let's suppose individual X, through the vagaries of fortune, is endowed with A+, a boosted, inheritable altruism. Suppose X has 2 descendants, X1 and X2. Both have A+. So say X1, prompted by A+, engages in a suicidal attack to defend the group. So X1 cannot reproduce. However, that attack will tend to profit X2 (as X2 is the closest in the group to X1). Thus X2 will survive more than if A+ did not exist. X2's reproductive success will be increased, and A+ will keep on going. By tweaking the parameters, it is clear one can concoct a differential equation where altruism grows. I leave the details to those who like to have esteemed scientific careers. Tyranosopher, Patrice Ayme |
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Mr. Futility
Resident  Usergroup: Deactivated By Request Joined: Sep 10, 2010 Total Topics: 11 Total Posts: 236 |
#6
Why Pure Altruism? Because it's in my interest. |
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Tyranosopher
banned Usergroup: Members Joined: Jul 07, 2009 Location: High Mountains Somewhere Total Topics: 5 Total Posts: 66
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#7
To BitterCrank: 1) In complement to what I said to duszek above, let me say that there is something beyond altruism. This is when you identify, and care more about the other than about the original self. In other words, you change self. Maybe one ought to call it TRANSALTERATION. This happens in the case of maximum parental love, as I discovered, and I think Descartes also observed (also from self observation). 2) The suicide attacker business is important. When the enemy is persuaded that the big males will not hesitate to engage in suicidal charge in defense of others in their group, the enemy will leave the group alone. This is how baboon society is defended. Now baboons' are not Darwin's grandfather. But the same mathematics lead to the same effects. So what is true, on this subject, with baboons, is also true, with humans. "Brainwashing" people into suicide attacks work, because they are baboons at heart. T |
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Tyranosopher
banned Usergroup: Members Joined: Jul 07, 2009 Location: High Mountains Somewhere Total Topics: 5 Total Posts: 66
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#8
Subject: Wired for altruism Unexper... and Mr. Futility both make the point that social animals are wired for altruism. This is certainly true, and ought not to be forgotten. I was going beyond, and showing how pure altruism connects to carnivorous supremacy (carnivorous supremacy in contradistinction with the attempted mass supremacy of the Blue Whale in the sea, which is not that supreme, because Orcas can kill them, and Blue Whales cannot extinguish Orcas...) Thus pure altruism also grows from the Dark Side in humans: we cannot escape. Another point is that altruism can become transalteration... T |
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Spanky the Monkey
Newbie  Usergroup: Members Joined: Sep 20, 2010 Total Topics: 1 Total Posts: 11 |
#9
I believe altruism as a concept is kind of self-contradictory. Altruisms' definition - as per Wikipedia is - "A selfless concern for the welfare of others" - and it also says "Altruism is the opposite of selfishness." But is it? To be selfless means to get nothing in return. But when you give either money to a beggar or love and affection, or parental love; you do get something in return. Maybe happiness or satisfaction. (Either moral or personal) And this creates this funny paradox, where in essence.. it's not a selfless act. It's completely and utterly... selfish. "Pure Altruism", sounds like a Utopian thing, where the person is always high on pleasing others, either by choice or brainwashing. @Tyranosopher "Pure altruism leads to a pleasure complex which entice the participant in the suicidary charge. " Social carnivorous primates, baboons and such, as you stated only did what they did, that is - to engage in lethal actions to protect the group - It's just that. To protect their species. Suicide bombers and kamikazes alike act due to the continuous bombardment of propaganda, at a point where they are brainwashed to believe that they'll actually achieve something greater and would "live to tell the tale" in the afterlife. To me it makes more sense 1.) brainwashing, 2.) under the influence of a certain substance, 3.) a genetic thing, 4.) psychological status, or a nice combo of the 4, would lead someone into a suicide charge. At the same time I can argue this: When your country is going into war what do the politicians and the highest religious members call upon? (Nope, not superman) They call upon your altruism. |
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Tyranosopher
banned Usergroup: Members Joined: Jul 07, 2009 Location: High Mountains Somewhere Total Topics: 5 Total Posts: 66
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#10
Subject: Atruism, transalteration Dear Spanky; I am trying to adress the questions you pondered. I was also baffled by the Wikipedia entry, and found it very primitve and self contradictory. This being said the subject is not easy and reminds me of the Cretan paradox. There is first altruism as subset of egoism: be good, so you go to heavens, or the love you put in is equal to the one you get... "Altruism" by the way was invented by Auguste Comte. Then there is something else. When social individuals forget themselves as individuals, and will die for the group, or a friend, or principle. Even lions, or hyenas have these sorts of behaviors. Baboons to not sit, and take a class in species conservation, nor do they take orders from genes (because genes do not speak, nor have feeling, whatever Dawkins believe). But when baboons get in the mood of the suicidal charge, even lions find themselves some other business, somewhere else. So what happens? Is it a form of egoism? No. The baboons has changed into another species, ethologically speaking. So I have invented (I take myself for Comte, apparently), a new concept and neologism: TRANSALTERATION. In altruism, X comes to the help of Y. In transalteration, X's ego gets entangled with Y, X feels as an extension of Y. I will explain it in a more advanced version of this essay that ought to appear soon on my personal site, http://patriceayme.wordpress.com/, once I finish writing it, integrating some of the helpful remarks here. . T Edited by Tyranosopher on 10/23/10 - 8:27 AM |
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