Why do we condemn egotistical or self-proud behaviour?

Should we condemn egotistical behaviour?
Yes

markus7, Wolfman, MysteriousMaze
3 38%
No

Alivrus
1 13%
I'm not sure

beliefshifter
1 13%
Other (Specify)

PeterL, Serpent, questar
3 38%
8 votes

Why do we condemn egotistical or self-proud behaviour?
Aesthetics
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Posted Aug 31, 2013 - 10:24 PM:
Subject: Why do we condemn egotistical or self-proud behaviour?
Kanye West recently released Yeezus, for which he caused some 'controversy' by calling himself a god in his song I Am A God (as well as comparing himself to Jesus). He is known for his vibrant and ego-fueled lifestyle, as well as his hip hop endeavours. But -- why do people condemn Kanye for these displays of pride and/or arrogance? Does he not like himself? Is that not good? I don't see harm coming to anyone by him thinking highly of himself, but I do see potential benefit for him being happy about himself.

To draw on this idea, why do we condemn people on a whole for being proud of themselves in a more open manner? Any legitimate reasons?

Note: of course there is the idea that Kanye's new album could be about many differing ideas, and that calling himself could be a metaphor for celebrites (yada yada yada), but that's another story.
Serpent
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Posted Aug 31, 2013 - 10:39 PM:

Main question about the guy I've never heard of: Who is condemning him? The people who fervently believe in their vengeful God and only-ever redeemer? If so, because he's:

1. appropriating their belief-system

2. trivializing it

3. insulting them

4. commercializing it

5. cashing in on it

6.holding it up to ridicule

and

7. making their deity angry

why do we condemn people on a whole for being proud of themselves in a more open manner?


That depends very much on how they do it and what about. A little strutting when you've aced the final exam is not only acceptable but applauded in fellow-feeling. A celebratory dance when you knock out your opponent - okay. Dancing on your opponent - not so much, though some people go along with that, too. Bragging about battles you haven't won goes over with big with nobody, but is usually forgiven - except, of course, by the opponent over whom you claim an unearned victory. Taking credit for someone else's accomplishment is generally disapproved-of on grounds of fairness - more so, if a reward claimed under false pretenses. Going around telling everyone how wonderful you are when you're not is just plain tiresome. If you are, it's tiresome and redundant.
Aesthetics
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Posted Aug 31, 2013 - 10:47 PM:

Serpent wrote:
Main question about the guy I've never heard of: Who is condemning him? The people who fervently believe in their vengeful God and only-ever redeemer? If so, because he's:

1. appropriating their belief-system

2. trivializing it

3. insulting them

4. commercializing it

5. cashing in on it

6.holding it up to ridicule

and

7. making their deity angry

That depends very much on how they do it and what about. A little strutting when you've aced the final exam is not only acceptable but applauded in fellow-feeling. A celebratory dance when you knock out your opponent - okay. Dancing on your opponent - not so much, though some people go along with that, too. Bragging about battles you haven't won goes over with big with nobody, but is usually forgiven - except, of course, by the opponent over whom you claim an unearned victory. Taking credit for someone else's accomplishment is generally disapproved-of on grounds of fairness - more so, if a reward claimed under false pretenses. Going around telling everyone how wonderful you are when you're not is just plain tiresome.


I wasn't talking about how Kanye West (he's a famous hip hop artist) has hurt people's views on their religion, but yes that is a side of the story. However, the side of the story I was more centered on was how he views himself as a great person. Talking about how great you are can get tiresome, but so can talking about how you are upset or almost anything that is about you -- but there seems to be some extra resentment of one feeling proud of oneself in a more expressive manner, and why is this?

The question of whether someone is 'great' is purely subjective -- you may like a person or you may not. I personally think Kanye West is a hugely talented artist and producer who deserves all his fame and lifestyle, but that's me, and if someone's opinion differs from this, then so be it, there is nothing wrong about that.
SIR2U
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Posted Sep 1, 2013 - 8:50 AM:

Jealousy. Most people don't like the idea of others doing well for themselves, especially in areas that they are incapable of succeeding or in things they dislike.
QuantumIguana
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Posted Sep 1, 2013 - 9:47 AM:

Arrogance is a sign of a lack of self-confidence. People respect accomplished people if they don't feel the need to toot their own horn.
PeterL
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Posted Sep 1, 2013 - 2:16 PM:

We should condemn egotistical behavior when it is offensive. Most of what humans do is egotistical to some degree.
Michael Blincowe
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Posted Sep 1, 2013 - 2:36 PM:

I imagine most people who criticise Egotistical actions and comments are jealous or just like to criticise.

However my view is that egotistical behaviour increases the chance of the person believing themselves to be better than those around them. Pride of oneself can lead to an increase in selfishness which ultimately brings about the downfall of that character and will decrease the chance of that person to have a positive influence on society.
Wolfman
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Posted Sep 1, 2013 - 6:07 PM:

Aesthetics wrote:
But -- why do people condemn Kanye for these displays of pride and/or arrogance?


Whoever makes himself a worm cannot complain when he is then trampled underfoot, but a man who makes himself a statue cannot complain when he is suspected of being hard-hearted or assuming a pose.

Aesthetics wrote:
Does he not like himself? Is that not good?


There is a difference, though, between “liking one’s self” and being arrogant. Self-esteem is how much we like ourselves and how much we value our self-worth, importance, attractiveness, and social competence. Arrogance is an exaggeration of one’s own importance or abilities. It is not just pride, rather excessive or undeserved pride, and contemporary psychology tells us that it is associated with negative outcomes, such as depression, anxiety, antisocial behavior and poor personal adjustment. There’s probably a reason why we don’t see so many arrogant old people. They either wise up or they don’t last.

*Random thoughts: I think as a people, any time we are ignorant of what we are, and lack an acknowledgement or understanding of what we are not, we are in for a rude awakening. We live in a culture that puts self-esteem on the highest pedestal. We give trophies to kids even when their soccer team comes in last place. We tell people they can do anything or be anything they want. It is a culture where self-esteem is valued more than actual achievement. “Trying” becomes more important than “doing.” People fail to realize that by coddling our kids too much in this way, we are setting them up for failure. We are instilling in them a false sense of entitlement – a sense that they always deserve something – that they are owed.

In the 40s we had a different attitude. It was more about us and less about me. By and large we worked harder, didn’t complain as much, and tended to get more accomplished. I think we need to start developing that attitude again and start fostering a better collective consciousness.

EDIT: Btw, forget Kanye and try Rakim, Wu-Tang Clan, 2pac, KRS-One, Nas, etc. sticking out tongue
On Sep 3, 2013 - 7:45 PM, SittinWSocratesTiff responded: A portion of this reply has been posted on the Philosophy Forums Facebook page. Congratulations and thank you for your contribution to the forums~
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Posted Sep 1, 2013 - 6:35 PM:

Aesthetics wrote:
Kanye West recently released Yeezus, for which he caused some 'controversy' by calling himself a god in his song I Am A God (as well as comparing himself to Jesus). He is known for his vibrant and ego-fueled lifestyle, as well as his hip hop endeavours. But -- why do people condemn Kanye for these displays of pride and/or arrogance? Does he not like himself? Is that not good? I don't see harm coming to anyone by him thinking highly of himself, but I do see potential benefit for him being happy about himself.

To draw on this idea, why do we condemn people on a whole for being proud of themselves in a more open manner? Any legitimate reasons?

Note: of course there is the idea that Kanye's new album could be about many differing ideas, and that calling himself could be a metaphor for celebrites (yada yada yada), but that's another story.


I don't know or listen to Mr. West, but I also find it curious that we tend to think people who have achieved a lot, braggarts if they emphasize their accomplishments. The Greeks had two concepts, that of arte, or human excellence and hubris, or false vanity.

To my mind, the work and life of Benvenuto Cellini represents arte. He was a musician, an artist, sculptor, jeweler, a true renaissance man. He accomplished much and he was proud of it, big time, only the way an Italian can be big in their life. I read his autobiography a long time ago, but the greatest of his love of life still hangs with me.
Serpent
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Posted Sep 1, 2013 - 10:52 PM:

The Greeks had two concepts, that of arte, or human excellence and hubris, or false vanity.


Hubris is more than being a braggart [tiresome]; it's challenging the gods. Used to goad the Greek gods to spiteful shows of power that involved everyone in a wide radious around the offender. That's what this fellow seems to have been doing. That bothers many people who believe in a separation of the human and supernatural and more particularly the iirritability of supernaturals, because they might suffer the fallout. Yes, people do still - often subconsciously - fear to anger the gods and resent anyone whose behaviour might bring a deity's wrath down upon their heads.
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