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Why do I need god?
A final challenge to you theists

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Why do I need god?

FrankenPC
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Posted 04/16/08 - 08:12 AM:	#151
A general response to anyone who claims happiness can only be obtained through belief in a god: Let's take the Buddhists for example. A true Buddhist doesn't much care for what happens in the afterlife. They are far more interested in finding happiness on Earth. That would make them truly devout atheists. I was watching an interesting show on Neuroplasticity (look it up) and the Buddhists were asked to come in and perform one of their more powerful forms of meditation called "compassion" while under the analysis of various scientific instruments such as FMRI and probes on the skull. To make a long story short, the Buddhists had obtained such a powerful level of compassion through meditation that their minds threw off powerful surges of electrical gamma activity. They were TRULY compassionate in this state. They felt truly happy and connected with everyone around them. My point is this. I would argue that, not only is "God" not necessary for happiness, but religion in general is nothing more than a lazy persons way of attempting to be happy. Being a Bud dist take thousands of hours of training to achieve true compassion. Most people, especially people in highly developed nations like America, don't have the patience for that kind of dedication. So, no, you don't need a "god" to find true happiness and compassion, you can have it right her right now with no false beliefs attached. But that would take effort.

Techeth
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Posted 04/16/08 - 06:29 PM:	#152
Sophistry wrote: What I mean is that when you give somebody a book and tell them that it is the holy word of an almighty God and that book tells them explicitly to kill people, then don't be surprised when they go about killing people.Of course these books also say some good things. But even if the Bible was 99% good and then said at the end 'By the way, you ought to be killing everybody who doesn't agree with you' then it's enough to convince some people to do so so. Of course, it's not 99% good, it's an utterly repulsive, immoral bloodbath of rape, genocide, and execution from start to finish.And why do I need the Bible to tell me the good things? I already know that murder is wrong and that I ought to be nice to people. I managed to figure that out all by myself. Why do I need a holy book that also advocates all kinds of terrible things?By the way, if you are able to separate the good from the bad in these books, by what criterion are you doing so?Yes, they really do mean 'Christian'. Check out their website if you don't believe me - http://www.kkk.bz/jesus_christ_warned_his_disciple.htm . I read what you said then visited the site, my point about the KKK is that they have determined what a Christian is on their own, I think everyone can agree you don't have to be white to be a Christian, when they say Christian they mean 'white' they simply use it as a veil for their propaganda. But still your argument suggest the KKK and such are just the victims of religion that, I find hard to believe. I have not read all of the Bible or any other religious scriptures, but from what I have read I had no inclination to kill people and I read nothing that suggested I should. Not only that but I don't know a single person who feels their religion justifies them killing people, that it outwardly suggest that they should. In fact the only people who seem to hold this view are like you said members of the KKK and Jihadist and such and people like you, I don't mean to be insulting just an observation. I'm not suggesting someone needs a holy book they simply have it. Clearly people have different perspectives, and most people don't think their religion tells them to, that God wants people to kill those who don't agree with them, the world would be a lot different if they did, no? So I guess it comes down to whether you think people are not responsible enough to have such a thing as religion.
Studying is like rowing against the current, if you are not moving forward, you are moving backward. - Chinese proverb Life's a bitch but God forbid the bitch divorce me! - Anon Silence makes the soul feel sick - Timid Timothy

Techeth
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Posted 04/16/08 - 06:32 PM:	#153
FrankenPC wrote: A general response to anyone who claims happiness can only be obtained through belief in a god: Let's take the Buddhists for example. A true Buddhist doesn't much care for what happens in the afterlife. They are far more interested in finding happiness on Earth. That would make them truly devout atheists. I was watching an interesting show on Neuroplasticity (look it up) and the Buddhists were asked to come in and perform one of their more powerful forms of meditation called "compassion" while under the analysis of various scientific instruments such as FMRI and probes on the skull. To make a long story short, the Buddhists had obtained such a powerful level of compassion through meditation that their minds threw off powerful surges of electrical gamma activity. They were TRULY compassionate in this state. They felt truly happy and connected with everyone around them. My point is this. I would argue that, not only is "God" not necessary for happiness, but religion in general is nothing more than a lazy persons way of attempting to be happy. Being a Bud dist take thousands of hours of training to achieve true compassion. Most people, especially people in highly developed nations like America, don't have the patience for that kind of dedication.So, no, you don't need a "god" to find true happiness and compassion, you can have it right her right now with no false beliefs attached. But that would take effort. Yes but that as you said would only be true happiness in this life, if you believe in God you believe in the afterlife.
Studying is like rowing against the current, if you are not moving forward, you are moving backward. - Chinese proverb Life's a bitch but God forbid the bitch divorce me! - Anon Silence makes the soul feel sick - Timid Timothy

Sophistry
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Posted 04/16/08 - 06:57 PM:	#154
Techeth wrote: I have not read all of the Bible or any other religious scriptures, but from what I have read I had no inclination to kill people and I read nothing that suggested I should. Did you read the references I provided? If you take a look at the bible you will very quickly find that it is replete with commandments to kill and stories of God killing. The same is true of the Koran and the Hadith. Techeth wrote: In fact the only people who seem to hold this view are like you said members of the KKK and Jihadist and such and people like you, I don't mean to be insulting just an observation. No offence taken. That's an accurate representation of my position. Religious incitement to violence is just one of many, many problems with religion. For example, it has long been the policy of the Vatican to forbid the use of contraceptives. This has had an absolutely devastating impact on parts of Africa that are struggling with AIDS epidemics and desperately need to control the spread of disease. But sadly many of the poor, downtrodden and ignorant people living there look to religion for guidance. The Vatican actually has missions in Africa that lure people in with the promise of aid as long as they become Catholics and abide by the vatican's commandments What they get in return is arguably the worst health emergency on the planet (I'm not saying that AIDS in Africa is all the Vatican's fault, but it's made it one hell of a lot harder to combat). And religious apologists have the gall to cite this type of thing as evidence of how religion does good! It would be laughable if the results weren't so tragic. Or take the recent case of a young girl (this was in the US) who was left to die because her parents believed that prayer would cure her of her illness. Her condition was quite readily treatable had her parents taken her to a hospital, but, again, religion provides false beliefs and false beliefs lead to bad outcomes. Or take the example of stem cell research (another of the vatican's masterstrokes of spiritual guidance). This research could provide treatments for a multitude of degenerative conditions such as parkinson's. But thanks in large part to religious doctrine, progress in this field is stagnating. Or take the fact that from the age of 5 until 18 I was forced to take part in a daily act of religious observance despite my obvious non-belief. It just goes on and on and on. I'm just trying to explain (since you asked) why I speak out about this stuff. Honestly, if the effect was limited to people in their own homes worshipping I would have no problem. But the poisonous effect of religion is so pervasive that I've just had enough.
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DarkHorse
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Posted 04/17/08 - 04:04 AM:	#155
Sophistry wrote: Did you read the references I provided? If you take a look at the bible you will very quickly find that it is replete with commandments to kill and stories of God killing. The same is true of the Koran and the Hadith. I'm sorry, but the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." comes to mind. I cannot speak fro any other religious texts, but the Bible at least says that Yes, killing is justifiable in certain circumstances. But no, it is not justifiable in most. You will find in and among just about every circumstance of killing that the people killed were a) quite evil, and b)killed at the direct order from God. You should note, however, that once they were established the Israelites only killed in self defense, and in the New Testament Christians do not kill at all. Ever. Sophistry wrote: Religious incitement to violence is just one of many, many problems with religion. For example, it has long been the policy of the Vatican to forbid the use of contraceptives. This has had an absolutely devastating impact on parts of Africa that are struggling with AIDS epidemics and desperately need to control the spread of disease. Um...just to point something out, there IS another way to prevent the spread of STDs. I'm not a particular supporter of the Vatican, but perhaps they have chosen to support abstinence as a statistically MORE EFFECTIVE way to prevent the spread of AIDS. Hoka Hey!
History is the only laboratory we have in which to test the consequences of thought.--Etienne Gilson

Techeth
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Posted 04/17/08 - 07:25 AM:	#156
Sophistry wrote: Did you read the references I provided? If you take a look at the bible you will very quickly find that it is replete with commandments to kill and stories of God killing. The same is true of the Koran and the Hadith. Yes but when judging the scriptures you have to take them as a whole, these things were said but then the teachings of Jesus teach otherwise. So the argument can't really be against religion or the bible as at that time they were not about in the same sense. Sophistry wrote: No offence taken. That's an accurate representation of my position. Religious incitement to violence is just one of many, many problems with religion. For example, it has long been the policy of the Vatican to forbid the use of contraceptives. This has had an absolutely devastating impact on parts of Africa that are struggling with AIDS epidemics and desperately need to control the spread of disease. But sadly many of the poor, downtrodden and ignorant people living there look to religion for guidance. The Vatican actually has missions in Africa that lure people in with the promise of aid as long as they become Catholics and abide by the vatican's commandments What they get in return is arguably the worst health emergency on the planet (I'm not saying that AIDS in Africa is all the Vatican's fault, but it's made it one hell of a lot harder to combat). And religious apologists have the gall to cite this type of thing as evidence of how religion does good! It would be laughable if the results weren't so tragic. I agree this is not the best approach, I myself don't know the Vatican's position on this but I would not have a problem with abstinence or contraceptive, in that order. I understand the concept that abstinence is a better approach but the ramifications of the reality are very different. This is my opinion I am sure the Church would have an argument against it. I have no problem with change just abolishment. Sophistry wrote: Or take the recent case of a young girl (this was in the US) who was left to die because her parents believed that prayer would cure her of her illness. Her condition was quite readily treatable had her parents taken her to a hospital, but, again, religion provides false beliefs and false beliefs lead to bad outcomes. Well you don't know its a false belief the foremost belief being the child would go to heaven. But I do agree religion can be misused or understood and that this is one of those cases (my opinion). Saying that if someone who was not religious made the same decision for confused scientific reasons I'd feel the same way, I think its a case of whether you'd deny them the choice, the cause of the choice seems irrelevant. Sophistry wrote: Or take the example of stem cell research (another of the vatican's masterstrokes of spiritual guidance). This research could provide treatments for a multitude of degenerative conditions such as parkinson's. But thanks in large part to religious doctrine, progress in this field is stagnating. I understand what you’re saying but that is the nature of ignorance it is part of our history. I don't think without religion it would be happening tomorrow. I know plenty of non religious people that are unsure. I personally think it is fine within reason, religion simply represents the largest body that has the power to influence such things. Sadly the animosity and politics between the two sides is probably slowing the process of reaching a conclusion as much as anything else. Sophistry wrote: Or take the fact that from the age of 5 until 18 I was forced to take part in a daily act of religious observance despite my obvious non-belief. Obviously its much different but I had to attend mass at a Catholic school, for eight years despite not being Catholic. It was at times a horrible feeling, but maybe because I was religious I held no grudge against the religion, I was just saddened by it's misuse. So I listened to hear what others seemingly could not. But I completely believe in your freedom to choose, and can to some extent appreciate what you went through. Sophistry wrote: It just goes on and on and on. I'm just trying to explain (since you asked) why I speak out about this stuff. Honestly, if the effect was limited to people in their own homes worshipping I would have no problem. But the poisonous effect of religion is so pervasive that I've just had enough. My view is that if religion didn't exist then the world would not be a better place. People will always make mistakes, do things wrong or just be corrupt and nothing and no one is immune from it. Religion is such a massive concept that speaks to our very existence, that it cannot be completely separate from our lives. There is a danger of throwing the baby out with the bath water. The important thing is try and figure out what's right and that is a long, long, long conversation.
Studying is like rowing against the current, if you are not moving forward, you are moving backward. - Chinese proverb Life's a bitch but God forbid the bitch divorce me! - Anon Silence makes the soul feel sick - Timid Timothy

Sophistry
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Posted 04/17/08 - 07:31 AM:	#157
DarkHorse wrote: I'm sorry, but the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." comes to mind. I cannot speak fro any other religious texts, but the Bible at least says that Yes, killing is justifiable in certain circumstances. But no, it is not justifiable in most. You will find in and among just about every circumstance of killing that the people killed were a) quite evil, and b)killed at the direct order from God. You should note, however, that once they were established the Israelites only killed in self defense, and in the New Testament Christians do not kill at all. Ever. I don't want to turn this into a Bible studies class, because it quickly gets quite boring. And by the way, I'm quite happy to concede that there are some good things in the Bible, but that doesn't affect my position one iota. Anyway, just to quickly address the issues you bring up. The actual hebrew word used in the sixth commandment is ratsach, which almost always refers to intentional killing without justification. So although the King James version of the bible certainly prints the commandment as 'thou shalt not kill', most modern translations agree that it ought to read 'thou shalt not murder'. But take it either way; either the Bible contradicts itself (which would certainly be no surprise given the superabundance of contradiction elsewhere in the book) or the Bible condones killing. Either way your point falls. Second, regarding the New Testament. This is an even more disgusting tome that the old testament. It is not until this part of the Bible that we get to the idea of hell and an eternity of hellfire and punishment and torture for violating God's commandments. It is not until the NT that we get to the contemptible notions that you ought not to try to accumulate wealth, or plan for the future, or save money, or stand up for yourself. This sort of thing has lead directly to miserable wretches like Mother Teresa promoting the virtues of poverty to desperately poor people around the world who need to be helped up the social ladder. But thanks to the teaching of the despicable NT they are conditioned to accept their lot and live out their lives without even the hope of bettering their condition. DarkHorse wrote: Um...just to point something out, there IS another way to prevent the spread of STDs. I'm not a particular supporter of the Vatican, but perhaps they have chosen to support abstinence as a statistically MORE EFFECTIVE way to prevent the spread of AIDS. Hoka Hey! This really shows the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of your position. The church has been spreading misinformation about this subject for years now. UNAIDS has repeatedly stated that condom use is by far the most effective method of preventing the spread of AIDS in sub-saharan Africa.
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Sophistry
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Posted 04/17/08 - 08:02 AM:	#158
Techeth wrote: Yes but when judging the scriptures you have to take them as a whole, these things were said but then the teachings of Jesus teach otherwise. So the argument can't really be against religion or the bible as at that time they were not about in the same sense. I agree this is not the best approach, I myself don't know the Vatican's position on this but I would not have a problem with abstinence or contraceptive, in that order. I understand the concept that abstinence is a better approach but the ramifications of the reality are very different. This is my opinion I am sure the Church would have an argument against it. I have no problem with change just abolishment. Well you don't know its a false belief the foremost belief being the child would go to heaven. But I do agree religion can be misused or understood and that this is one of those cases (my opinion). Saying that if someone who was not religious made the same decision for confused scientific reasons I'd feel the same way, I think its a case of whether you'd deny them the choice, the cause of the choice seems irrelevant. I understand what you’re saying but that is the nature of ignorance it is part of our history. I don't think without religion it would be happening tomorrow. I know plenty of non religious people that are unsure. I personally think it is fine within reason, religion simply represents the largest body that has the power to influence such things. Sadly the animosity and politics between the two sides is probably slowing the process of reaching a conclusion as much as anything else. Obviously its much different but I had to attend mass at a Catholic school, for eight years despite not being Catholic. It was at times a horrible feeling, but maybe because I was religious I held no grudge against the religion, I was just saddened by it's misuse. So I listened to hear what others seemingly could not. But I completely believe in your freedom to choose, and can to some extent appreciate what you went through. My view is that if religion didn't exist then the world would not be a better place. People will always make mistakes, do things wrong or just be corrupt and nothing and no one is immune from it. Religion is such a massive concept that speaks to our very existence, that it cannot be completely separate from our lives. There is a danger of throwing the baby out with the bath water. The important thing is try and figure out what's right and that is a long, long, long conversation. Here's the core point. Religion has caused a lot of bad things to happen (as I think you concede). Now, religious people have no doubt done some good things as well. The American civil rights movement comes to mind. But I don't think that religion was necessary for those things to happen. Christopher Hitchens has a little thought experiment that I think illustrates my position quite nicely. It goes like this. Can you name me a single ethical statement made or action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer? Nobody seems to be able to answer this, and it really shows that religion is not necessary to do good. It's no good pointing out that some religious person you know has done wonderful things, because I could equally well point towards a communist who fought against Hitler and helped to win the war. It wouldn't vindicate his political beliefs. The corollary, of course, is can you name me an evil action performed by a believer as a direct result of his faith? Nobody needs even to pause for a second to come up with one. And if you've been reading my posts you ought to readily be able to list off three or four examples. So, religion isn't necessary to do good, and directly causes evil. Why can't we just dispense with it?
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Techeth
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Posted 04/17/08 - 08:25 AM:	#159
Yes but I can make the same argument. It goes like this. Can you name me a single evil statement made or action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer? I don't see anyone claiming religion is necessary for good, that seems blasphemous to me. Religion is simply away of living a Godly life. Some beleive their religion is the only way to do this, but I see no reason to claim if their religion didn't exist then mankind would be evil, but I've not heard an argument for this. The only reasons I see to abolish religion is if you know for a fact God doesn't exist, or you can prove it provides a severe threat to mankind, that would not exist without it.
Studying is like rowing against the current, if you are not moving forward, you are moving backward. - Chinese proverb Life's a bitch but God forbid the bitch divorce me! - Anon Silence makes the soul feel sick - Timid Timothy

Techeth
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Posted 04/17/08 - 01:27 PM:	#160
And on the note of wealth and standing up yourself. I can only speak from second hand knowledge but I do know it to be partially true, the Bible doesn't really have anything against wealth, that is a misconception. In fact a lot of people regarded highly in the Bible were wealthy people. I will try and get a list if required.
Studying is like rowing against the current, if you are not moving forward, you are moving backward. - Chinese proverb Life's a bitch but God forbid the bitch divorce me! - Anon Silence makes the soul feel sick - Timid Timothy

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Posted 04/17/08 - 02:13 PM:	#161
Well I'd respond to that long lost reply, but I'd basically just say what has already been said. Corrupted and "evil" people were killed, only because God gave the direct order. Thou shalt not kill is among the first things that comes to mind when I think of the bible... If you must know my personal stance, then I'd say the death penalty is suiting for those that have already killed more than one person. That's not revenge, but it's like removing a virus from your computer before it does any more damage. Also, you say that the KKK followed the bible's instructions well? Ok, so where in the bible does it say to kill people of a different skin color? If it was so racist there would be no black Christians, yet there are black churches. Anyway, every church that I've been to has been full of well-wishing old folks and goody-goody kids. No one does so much as speak the slightest bit vulgarly, and everyone seeks to do the right thing. All the kids are well behaved, and typically they grow into more respectful young adults. Whereas public school students are usually misbehaved, disrespectful, and seeking trouble for the sake of attention or fitting in. If not, then they're usually the public-schooled Christian kid. That's all based on my personal experience, but I can guarantee you that most Christians will say the same exact thing. Trust me, I've been in both the public school and the private school environment, they are very different in the ways I listed. Now don't misunderstand, I'm not saying that religion is necessary for good, but I'm just saying that the majority of the religious people are good, not bad (i.e. killing people in the name of God, e.t.c..) Yeah, praying for a kid instead of treating them is a bit odd for someone to do, but that was their mistake, it's not religion's fault. Many religious people have either misused/misunderstood the teachings of religion, made mistakes and used religion as an excuse to justify things, or they take things to the extreme and everything always goes down-hill from there. People are prone to mistakes, and listing all the mistakes of Christian people is not a valid reason to say that the religion is wrong and immoral. Before you argue about the gays because of that statement, I think I might add that he said nothing more than basically, don't sleep with other men. "It is an abomination for a man to lie with a man as with a woman, or a woman to lie with a woman as with a man." That is what was said. In the bible it also says to "love everyone." It never said to "hate the man who lies with a man." Therefore, saying anything about that would only be listing more Christian mistakes. Edited by J.D. on 04/17/08 - 02:19 PM
"I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind." -René Descartes, Cogito ergo sum

DarkHorse
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Posted 04/17/08 - 07:22 PM:	#162
Sophistry wrote: I don't want to turn this into a Bible studies class, because it quickly gets quite boring. Sadly you are correct about this being the wrong place for a bible debate. I would be perfectly willing to defend my position, but it would involve seriously drifting from the topic, which is already barely in view. I am not conceding your point, just trying to answer the posted question. Sophistry wrote: This really shows the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of your position. The church has been spreading misinformation about this subject for years now. UNAIDS has repeatedly stated that condom use is by far the most effective method of preventing the spread of AIDS in sub-saharan Africa. Wait, did you just say that sexual relations with a condom is more effective at stopping the spread of AIDS being transmitted sexually than abstaining from sex altogether? I do not care what UNAIDS says, if you don't do action X, there is NO chance that something negetive will result from action X. Whereas if you do action X, despite the strongest protection you can possibly have, there IS a chance, however small, that you will get a negetive result. And you say I am intellectually bankrupt?
History is the only laboratory we have in which to test the consequences of thought.--Etienne Gilson

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Posted 04/18/08 - 06:02 PM:	#163
Lex wrote: I am nearly sick of arguments about religion. The more timid run from far-reaching debate, and the "fervent" ones have NEVER once given me a good argument. Mostly the debate centers around their bad-mouthing me and attacking the wording of my statements and deliberately ignoring any meaningful questions. A popular trick is to rant about the infinite and indefinite nature of god without answering these. It all comes down to: you can't prove that god does not exist to me and that's that. This is utterly ridiculous because it literally means: "You can't prove my random fantasy is false because it is so weird it defies definition!" So my goal is a bit different. Here is my challenge: I say that I can be a better person than any christian or other theist without believing in a deity. I also believe that murder is wrong and believe in helping people and not being selfish. I do not claim to do it for the prize (going to heaven) or out of fear (going to hell). It's quite selfish to be good because god will reward you for it, don't you think? So why should I believe in this entity? Even if it did exist? Why are you people out there claiming to be good when you are actually useless? Oh but I forgot how useful religion can be. We can't do without the crusades, the inquisition and child-molesting priests now, can we. Why should I waste time on someone whoe doesn't really want to know. You have no real desire to learn. Would you try to convince someone if you knew ahead of time that they are wasting your time? Prove to me why I should tell you. In fact why don't you convince me that you are correct?

Makarismos
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Posted 04/19/08 - 03:26 AM:	#164
DarkHorse wrote: Wait, did you just say that sexual relations with a condom is more effective at stopping the spread of AIDS being transmitted sexually than abstaining from sex altogether? I do not care what UNAIDS says, if you don't do action X, there is NO chance that something negetive will result from action X. Whereas if you do action X, despite the strongest protection you can possibly have, there IS a chance, however small, that you will get a negetive result. And you say I am intellectually bankrupt? People have sex, that’s one of the things we do. It is a thing which a normal healthy human will do as a matter of course. Action X is a rather splendid thing. I, and many others, do not consider it sinful. Your argument seems to stem from an idea that AIDS is perhaps a punishment for the sinful? That if one followed the commandments, then they would not get AIDS? You might as well argue that we shouldn’t speak to each other for fear of catching Spanish flu. Sure, social isolation would ensure the survival of the human race - but we do not wish to merely survive. We wish to also communicate, have art, literature, romance, poetry, and (dare I say it) have Sex! Further, AIDS is common in children - they do not have sex to get it, but are infected at birth. Many women are raped and so contract the disease. Blood transfusions give people AIDS: none of these methods of transfer would be stopped by either safe sex or abstaining. So if AIDS were a punishment, then god must also be punishing people for being born, receiving medical attention, and being raped. If AIDS is not a punishment, then what are you saying? That following some of the teachings of the bible will lead to a happier life, and that therefore one should follow all the teachings of the bible? Do you think that that is conclusive, or do you have more arguments to add?

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Posted 04/22/08 - 11:30 AM:	#165
Makarismos wrote: People have sex, that’s one of the things we do. It is a thing which a normal healthy human will do as a matter of course. Action X is a rather splendid thing. I, and many others, do not consider it sinful. Your argument seems to stem from an idea that AIDS is perhaps a punishment for the sinful? That if one followed the commandments, then they would not get AIDS? You might as well argue that we shouldn’t speak to each other for fear of catching Spanish flu. Sure, social isolation would ensure the survival of the human race - but we do not wish to merely survive. We wish to also communicate, have art, literature, romance, poetry, and (dare I say it) have Sex! Further, AIDS is common in children - they do not have sex to get it, but are infected at birth. Many women are raped and so contract the disease. Blood transfusions give people AIDS: none of these methods of transfer would be stopped by either safe sex or abstaining. So if AIDS were a punishment, then god must also be punishing people for being born, receiving medical attention, and being raped. You may notice that I never said people should not have sex. While I do believe that pre or extramarital sex is immoral, that is not the issue here, so please do not turn this into an ad hominem attack, or an attack on Christianity in general. The issue that I am arguing is whether or not Christian religious institutions encourage or discourage the spread of AIDS. Sophistry, above, suggested that the discouragement of birth control use by the Catholic Church is actually helping to spread AIDS. I said that perhaps the church is discouraging birth control in favor of abstinence. Nowhere above did I say that people should not reproduce, have sex, or anything similar. What I said was that abstinence would be a better way to control the spread of AIDS than birth control. I do not say that abstinence will stop all the ways in which a person can be infected by AIDS, but it might slow the alarming rate at which ONE of these ways spreads AIDS. That was, after all, the issue we were addressing. You will also notice that I never suggested that AIDS was a punishment. I do not know how you surmised that from my argument, but did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, it wasn't God that was punishing people? After all, it seems that punishment is more similar to the modus operandi of His nemesis. Makarismos wrote: If AIDS is not a punishment, then what are you saying? That following some of the teachings of the bible will lead to a happier life, and that therefore one should follow all the teachings of the bible? Do you think that that is conclusive, or do you have more arguments to add? I would suggest that all evidence leads me to assume that following the teachings of the Bible, God, etc. would lead to a happier life. That would also be one of my answers to 'Why do I need God?' I further suggest that following ALL of the teachings of the Bible will lead to a happier life. There are other reasons who God is needed, but that would certainly be one of the most compelling.
History is the only laboratory we have in which to test the consequences of thought.--Etienne Gilson

Lex
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Posted 04/22/08 - 02:19 PM:	#166
Techeth wrote: I'm sure you've been abused by many people or 'pet dogs' in you life, but what you are saying is no different than a black person saying the same thing just changing religion to white people. I don't suppose you hold the same position in regard to white people do you? I'm glad you care I have no problem with that, as I imagine the many people both religious and non that have evolved beyond a kanine level do. Keep your chin up! Never been abused in my life. I have no idea what you are talking about. I would ask you to be clearer, but because you seem intent on randomly annoying people rather than arguing I will ask you to refrain from posting your randomness.

Lex
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Posted 04/22/08 - 02:21 PM:	#167
DarkHorse wrote: Hello, Yoy ask that, assuming an omnipotent, omniscient entity called god exists, why should you believe in it? Well, assuming that this entity is the Christian God, the first reason would ostensibly be 'fire insurance.' I.E. If there is a Christian God, then there is most likely a Devil and a hell, both of which, by pretty much every description, are things any sane person would want to avoid. Of course, some Christians would say that hell as a fiery, tormenting, etc. place doesn't exist, and it is actually on eternal separation from God. Regardless, the opposite would inevitably be much preferable. Also, there is simply reason. If God does not exist and you believe in Him, you will live a 'good' life even by the standards of athiests. Hurting no one, helping the poor, etc. (Yes, I know some pretty terrible stuff has been done in the name of religion, but then, everything evil that was done was because of straying from the true doctrines of the religion, at least the Christian one.) If, however, God does exist and you don't believe in Him, it would go bad for you. Secondly, any entity that exists would prabably be a bit peeved if people claimed that it didn't. The image that comes to mind is that of a child sticking its fingers in its ears and humming loudly so as not to hear anything it doesn't like. No offense is meant by this example. But, if God exists, and is inifnately powerful, it might not be the best idea to annoy Him. Would it? You could, of course argue that the Christian God is good, and therefore would not hurt you because of your unbelief. However, an infinately good entity would seek to do good for others. Beliefe in God blesses (or otherwise generally helps) the believers, or so His book says, so wouldn't a good God want to bring that blessing to others? If the only way to make you a believer would be to get your attention, and you were not listening to Him, his only way to get your attention might just be through suffering, hardship, etc. No threat intended. On the other hand, if you are blessed by an omnipotent being then you would probably live a good life. Just food for though. Hoka Hey! DarkHorse Sounds like a cowardly submission to a mysterious tyrant.

Lex
Graduate

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Posted 04/22/08 - 02:26 PM:	#168
ADD wrote: Religion has not failed mankind, society has failed mankind. Religion has been a vehicle for society. Society is a monster. Society is the slavemaster. The world has changed (for humans) faster in the last 2k years than all of human history combined. I read a comment talking about man being slaves' in caves. How absurd. How condescending. Chronological snobbery. Men were slaves to mother earth, to God. Now you are slaves to society. Consider the story of Adam and Eve. Perhaps, this story is refering to two individuals who populated the earth after their transgression. It is my belief this story is about the movement of people from dependency upon nature to civilization. Bottom line.... food production (apple/tree). Mankind has given itself to the dependency of itself. So /b why do I need God?/b? Apparantly not. We are masters of our environment and slaves to our "institutions". This is not what God wills. We are living in amazing times friends. Beware of false prophets. Quit looking for answers from God among men. You will never find empirical evidence or proof. The end of civilization is near. What about mankind? If we survive, it will be nothing like it is now. You will fend for yourselves. You will depend on God who breaths life in to all things. Then you may know mercy. Then you may know peace. Answer to your question: You will find no peace without God. However you choose to know him or call him. Remeber, Jesus Christ was every bit as offended as you by all biblical accounts(pertaining to the institution of church and state). This, my good friend, is a RANT. If you do not wish to condescend to looking for answers "among men", what in the world are you doing in a philosophy forum anyway? I would gladly ask god for some answers, but as he seems to be rather hard to reach, I have to do with my own pathetic earthly way of reasoning things out.

Lex
Graduate

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Posted 04/22/08 - 02:32 PM:	#169
lochmoigh wrote: Why should I waste time on someone whoe doesn't really want to know. You have no real desire to learn. Would you try to convince someone if you knew ahead of time that they are wasting your time? Prove to me why I should tell you. In fact why don't you convince me that you are correct? Because you are saying that you have something I should believe. Convince me. Or admit that you do cannot convince me with actual evidence and randomly choose to believe it. If you don't feel like it, I couldn't care less: engage on a journey a mountainous trail.

Makarismos
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Posted 04/22/08 - 03:06 PM:	#170
DarkHorse wrote: You may notice that I never said people should not have sex. No, you said that abstinence was a better way of stopping the spread of aids than the use of condoms. See you said it here:- DarkHorse wrote: While I do believe that pre or extramarital sex is immoral, that is not the issue here, so please do not turn this into an ad hominem attack, or an attack on Christianity in general. The issue that I am arguing is whether or not Christian religious institutions encourage or discourage the spread of AIDS. Sophistry, above, suggested that the discouragement of birth control use by the Catholic Church is actually helping to spread AIDS. I said that perhaps the church is discouraging birth control in favor of abstinence. This is only true providing that real life people will be able to exercise the control your approach (and that of the catholic church) requires. *You assume by this that people do not have* to have sex at all, that they simply chose to. I suggest that this is entirely false: people have sex because that is one thing that people do. They do not do it to be "naughty", or because they want to be "sinful", it is because they are human. You posit an "ideal" reality, where humans were different than they are, and consequently had happier lives. I deny your alternative, because it does not match the facts of what humans are. Yes, If no one ever had extra marital sex, aids progress would slow down: however we would need a population composed of saints, or angles, and not humans. DarkHorse wrote: Nowhere above did I say that people should not reproduce, have sex, or anything similar. What I said was that abstinence would be a better way to control the spread of AIDS than birth control. I do not say that abstinence will stop all the ways in which a person can be infected by AIDS, but it might slow the alarming rate at which ONE of these ways spreads AIDS. That was, after all, the issue we were addressing. The continent you were speaking of - Africa - is different than the USA or the UK. If you lived there, It would not be possible (for the average person) to get yourself or your partner tested for aids. It would not be possible to be treated for aids if you happened to have it. Contracting aids would mean, does mean, a death sentance. If we further consider that areas of Africa consists of a majoraty of HIV sufferers - you can see the implications of your view: Strict abstinence would mean that the majority of some areas "should" lie down and die, should not reproduce, should not have sex. For humanity this would be a good thing - but it is unrealistic to expect this kind of behaviour from human beings.** DarkHorse wrote: You will also notice that I never suggested that AIDS was a punishment. I do not know how you surmised that from my argument, but did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, it wasn't God that was punishing people? After all, it seems that punishment is more similar to the modus operandi of His nemesis. If you read carefully I offered a choice - either AIDS was meant as a punishment, or else it wasnt. This was in an attempt to understand what you meant: I do not know anything about you or your opinion other than what you type, so if we are to discuss things I realy do need to offer you some choices, wouldnt you agree? Fine then, if AIDS is not a punishment, then what are you saying?:- me wrote: That following some of the teachings of the bible will lead to a happier life, and that therefore one should follow all the teachings of the bible? Do you think that that is conclusive, or do you have more arguments to add? Notice how if asked if you had arguments - I did not ask if you had an opinion (I had worked this out already from what you have been saying). You did reply, but mainly with an opinion:- DarkHorse wrote: I would suggest that all evidence leads me to assume that following the teachings of the Bible, God, etc. would lead to a happier life. That would also be one of my answers to 'Why do I need God?' I further suggest that following ALL of the teachings of the Bible will lead to a happier life. There are other reasons who God is needed, but that would certainly be one of the most compelling. And this I cannot fault. If you believe in god, then far be it from me to attempt to reason you one way or another. I myself am not sure what is meant by the term “god” - but do know that whatever is being referred to is way beyond what can be logically proven or disproven. This leaves only faith, and that cannot be argued with. Perhaps can never be argued with, unless we transcend what it is to be human. In this life though, I see suffering which is caused by a disregard of what humans will do by their own nature. I agree that an individual is clever, thoughtful, and will react in surprising ways: people as a group are predictable, stupid, and thoughtless. As a collective humanity is unlikely to become virtuous overnight, however if we were to spread a few hundred thousand condoms around, and show people how to use them, there would be less people in the world to mess it up, and less AIDS, and less orphans. Cheers

ADD
Initiate

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Posted 04/22/08 - 06:17 PM:	#171
Lex wrote: This, my good friend, is a RANT. If you do not wish to condescend to looking for answers "among men", what in the world are you doing in a philosophy forum anyway? I would gladly ask god for some answers, but as he seems to be rather hard to reach, I have to do with my own pathetic earthly way of reasoning things out. Well I certainly did'nt come here to find proof for the existence of God. Or reasoning from someone else as to why I should obey God. I'm in no way stating that people can not look to others for guidance. But the answers you demand are ultimately your's. My point (though I often digress, hence the name) is that civilization is lost. I believe you are on the right path Lex. You have a right to be angry. Be careful where you direct your anger. Keep seeking, keep demanding, keep refining your criterea and methods. I think the truth you seek is found in text much older than what is being written today... further astray. Not all that wander are lost... Now for more ranting: Sophist says religion is largely to blame. All the same she regards the NT's commandments concerning seeking wealth and individual prosperity repulsive. I on the other find it magnificent. Blame religion for human greed. The same effort spent hording money and aquiring wealth could be applied in human service. With great power comes great responsibility. We are called to sacrafice. Excess is all capitalist society knows. Excess and exhaust. If you think the NT calls for you to not take a stand then I will say you have a vastly different interpretation than me. Turning the other cheek to violence is not a cowardly act. Ghandi took quite a stand while taking quite a beating. Not preparing for the future? Are you joking? Christ clearly warns me of a future that looks much like ours today. And all of what you call suffering I will go so far as to say is for your prepartion and benifit for what is to come. From suffering is strength. AIDS is a result of human overpopulation. The catholic church telling people to not wear protection is much like conventional religion telling Christ to not heal on the sabbath. If you contract AIDS from having random sex in an area plagued with STD I do not pity you anymore than I the world. I am happily faithful to my wife. If my wife were to unknowingly have contracted HIV then I surmise to our fate. Overpopulation is a terrible plague with horrible ramifications. So as it is, the church is not helping matters in Africa. However, condoms are by no means a cure to HIV. If you choose to not wear a condom because you believe it is God's will, you are no different than the parents that watched their child die. As for Stem-cell research. I think it is fitting i should address this next. How long do we extend human life expectancy? How do we apply this miracle (certainly to those with the most resources). The earth can not sustain our population as it is. Resource hungry or dense populations barely need more sustaining. I think this science is a tad bit premature as is climate control, genetic engineering, biomedical nanotechnology etc etc. But populations never listen to science or religion. Both have warnings. My general point is that it is due time human beings start reaping. Human beings survived 45k years or so without modern convience. Human "progress" and "development" has failed you. The dinosaurs will have enjoyed a longer stay here than we at this rate. It all begins with us "controlling" our environment. God obviously did'nt hold back our hand then and will not save us when it turns on us. Don't seek God in the world seek God in yourself. The world will fail you, it fails us all. Pointing fingers does little good until you turn it around. I don't know what tommorow holds but I am building in myself character to survive. And yes I am preparing myself for the next big storm as I believe it is God's will. Faith is action. Learn to swim, the water is rising.

Techeth
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Posted 04/22/08 - 07:05 PM:	#172
Lex wrote: Never been abused in my life. I have no idea what you are talking about. I would ask you to be clearer, but because you seem intent on randomly annoying people rather than arguing I will ask you to refrain from posting your randomness. Forgive me your post Lex wrote: Religion is not just a root, it is a veil. Justification for action. 500 years ago, millions of YOU were sitting around telling everyone how wonderful religion is while somebody was being skinned alive for the glory of god. Complete blindness: you cannot even distinguish right and wrong because you wrap yourself in ignorance. Today, most humans would call members of the Inquisition or the KKK barbaric. Before, they were heroes, believe it or not. The scary thing is, humans are like pet dogs: can be taught anything. Hence people tell me: why do you even care? Because I live in this world, damn it. . Seemed like the rant of a man that had a bone to pick, although I'm not sure where "abused" came from I apologies, and its not my intention to annoy people. That aside was there anything else in my argument that seemed random or unclear?
Studying is like rowing against the current, if you are not moving forward, you are moving backward. - Chinese proverb Life's a bitch but God forbid the bitch divorce me! - Anon Silence makes the soul feel sick - Timid Timothy

Lex
Graduate

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Posted 04/22/08 - 08:20 PM:	#173
Techeth wrote: Seemed like the rant of a man that had a bone to pick, although I'm not sure where "abused" came from I apologies, and its not my intention to annoy people. That aside was there anything else in my argument that seemed random or unclear? Not really, some people asked me the question, so I answered it. By the way, do you have sclerosis? You quoted my post and said that you think I was abused by many people and dogs(?). I had no idea what you meant, and nevertheless answered that no, I was not abused. Now you come back and tell me you are not sure where "abused" came from? You tell me, since you told me I was abused. Before you say anything else, please get your thoughts in order, look at your previous posts. I am a bit tired of this.

Lex
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Posted 04/22/08 - 08:32 PM:	#174
ADD wrote: Well I certainly did'nt come here to find proof for the existence of God. Or reasoning from someone else as to why I should obey God. I'm in no way stating that people can not look to others for guidance. But the answers you demand are ultimately your's. My point (though I often digress, hence the name) is that civilization is lost. I believe you are on the right path Lex. You have a right to be angry. Be careful where you direct your anger. Keep seeking, keep demanding, keep refining your criterea and methods. I think the truth you seek is found in text much older than what is being written today... further astray. Not all that wander are lost... Now for more ranting: Sophist says religion is largely to blame. All the same she regards the NT's commandments concerning seeking wealth and individual prosperity repulsive. I on the other find it magnificent. Blame religion for human greed. The same effort spent hording money and aquiring wealth could be applied in human service. With great power comes great responsibility. We are called to sacrafice. Excess is all capitalist society knows. Excess and exhaust. If you think the NT calls for you to not take a stand then I will say you have a vastly different interpretation than me. Turning the other cheek to violence is not a cowardly act. Ghandi took quite a stand while taking quite a beating. Not preparing for the future? Are you joking? Christ clearly warns me of a future that looks much like ours today. And all of what you call suffering I will go so far as to say is for your prepartion and benifit for what is to come. From suffering is strength. AIDS is a result of human overpopulation. The catholic church telling people to not wear protection is much like conventional religion telling Christ to not heal on the sabbath. If you contract AIDS from having random sex in an area plagued with STD I do not pity you anymore than I the world. I am happily faithful to my wife. If my wife were to unknowingly have contracted HIV then I surmise to our fate. Overpopulation is a terrible plague with horrible ramifications. So as it is, the church is not helping matters in Africa. However, condoms are by no means a cure to HIV. If you choose to not wear a condom because you believe it is God's will, you are no different than the parents that watched their child die. As for Stem-cell research. I think it is fitting i should address this next. How long do we extend human life expectancy? How do we apply this miracle (certainly to those with the most resources). The earth can not sustain our population as it is. Resource hungry or dense populations barely need more sustaining. I think this science is a tad bit premature as is climate control, genetic engineering, biomedical nanotechnology etc etc. But populations never listen to science or religion. Both have warnings. My general point is that it is due time human beings start reaping. Human beings survived 45k years or so without modern convience. Human "progress" and "development" has failed you. The dinosaurs will have enjoyed a longer stay here than we at this rate. It all begins with us "controlling" our environment. God obviously did'nt hold back our hand then and will not save us when it turns on us. Don't seek God in the world seek God in yourself. The world will fail you, it fails us all. Pointing fingers does little good until you turn it around. I don't know what tommorow holds but I am building in myself character to survive. And yes I am preparing myself for the next big storm as I believe it is God's will. Faith is action. Learn to swim, the water is rising. A bit surprising. Despite this much info, you are quite good at not divulging any opinion for me to dissect, and I admit I agree with the conclusion of your post: learn to swim. However, if you ask me, it has nothing to do with religion. You are quite the insane atheist/theist hybrid are you not? I will keep searching, of course, and wish you the same.

Techeth
Assistant Professor

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Posted 04/23/08 - 04:28 AM:	#175
Lex wrote: Not really, some people asked me the question, so I answered it. By the way, do you have sclerosis? You quoted my post and said that you think I was abused by many people and dogs(?). I had no idea what you meant, and nevertheless answered that no, I was not abused. Now you come back and tell me you are not sure where "abused" came from? You tell me, since you told me I was abused. Before you say anything else, please get your thoughts in order, look at your previous posts. I am a bit tired of this. I apologies again I didn't think it was that difficult to understand, let me explain. I said you must have been abused by "dogs" because you refer to people as pet dogs (please my read previous post). As I said I don't know why I used the word "abused" it was a while ago, I can't remember but I imagine it had something to do with the hostility that seemed present in your post, but I'm not sure so I apologised. It wasn't a question there was no question mark. Can I assume you are too tired to continue?
Studying is like rowing against the current, if you are not moving forward, you are moving backward. - Chinese proverb Life's a bitch but God forbid the bitch divorce me! - Anon Silence makes the soul feel sick - Timid Timothy

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