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Why do I need god?
A final challenge to you theists

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Why do I need god?

Techeth
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Posted 03/26/08 - 03:10 AM:	#126
Lex wrote: ???? "I can't argue with you over the God you believe any particular religion has prescribed to, or at least I don't care to. I consider myself religious but my understanding of God is mine not solely what the church has told me he is." I am not grabbing anything out of thin air. This statement literally means: "the church is not the ultimate authority on god to me" Hence: you somehow got the notion of god. Obviously someone theistic explained the concept to you at some point. Then you accepted his/her word. However, your definition of god, a concept initially supplied to you by the church, for some reason evolved into your own definition which is not encompassed fully by common dogma. Not sure how that works. You are not anywhere near as clear as you try to appear (or think you are). "I believe in god" "my understanding of God is mine not solely what the church has told me he is" "I never said I don't believe in the church!" "I do believe in the church in principle": AMBIGUOUS!! I accept that what you are saying might make sense to you, but since I am only able to read your statements I HAVE to take them at face value: that is what I do and I get a bunch of incongruities. I do not even know what you agreed with me on! (christian god DNE, religion is harmful, etc.) It is ambiguous because I am not trying to be clear, my personal view of God has nothing to do with the argument, so why go into any depth? The point I am making is I do separate God and the Church. That is fundamental to the argument. I am simply making the point the Church to me is not the ultimate authority on God, I find it hard to image why it would be. That doesn't mean it is not an authority on God. Why does it have to be the ultimate authority? Where do these absolutes come from? Lex wrote: 1. I never argued god's existence in my original question. Numerous people started here posted comments AS IF my purpose was specifically to prove he/she/it does not exist, and I perhaps inadvertently made remarks that made it seem as if this was the purpose of my argument. 2. Maybe you separate god and religion, but for me and for most people, religion is valid because of the existence of god, so you cannot distinguish them completely. All I am saying is that a god who wishes for the type of religion that is defined here on Earth cannot exist. There, I answered your question as directly as possible, and please do not use 2) as an excuse to say that I am arguing about god's existence. I am arguing about the validity of religion (with theists associated with god). Techeth wrote: 2) That’s fine I completely agree I do not believe God wishes for the Church to be the way it is today, but I do not judge God by the church. As clearly neither do you, and I do not believe to be a thiest you have to accept absolutely your religions view of God. Especially since I am not sure there are any religions with an absolute view, this may make you a somewhat undefined theist as you say, but hey.
Studying is like rowing against the current, if you are not moving forward, you are moving backward. - Chinese proverb Life's a bitch but God forbid the bitch divorce me! - Anon Silence makes the soul feel sick - Timid Timothy

Casualty
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Posted 03/26/08 - 08:36 AM:	#127
Lex- One cat has nine tails. Proof: no cat has eight tails. One cat has one more tail than no cat. One cat has nine tails. Wow.... All cat's have nine tails.... Sorry. I know I have broken logic, however, I would like to know where and why I went wrong in my logical "proof." If you can tell me all the places, without redundancy, I would be ecstatic.

Lex
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Posted 03/26/08 - 08:40 AM:	#128
Techeth wrote: It is ambiguous because I am not trying to be clear, my personal view of God has nothing to do with the argument, so why go into any depth? The point I am making is I do separate God and the Church. That is fundamental to the argument. I am simply making the point the Church to me is not the ultimate authority on God, I find it hard to image why it would be. That doesn't mean it is not an authority on God. Why does it have to be the ultimate authority? Where do these absolutes come from? Well, my argument is dependent on facts. I obviously cannot argue with you if you say something like "my definition of god does is not the same as that of the church", since you deliberately say that you are not trying to be clear. Hence I cannot make any certain statements. I can only argue against that which is well-defined: each religion in particular. Techeth wrote: I do not believe God wishes for the Church to be the way it is today, but I do not judge God by the church. As clearly neither do you, and I do not believe to be a thiest you have to accept absolutely your religions view of God. Especially since I am not sure there are any religions with an absolute view, this may make you a somewhat undefined theist as you say, but hey. Yes you do. Simply put, you create your own religion once you decide to redefine an existing one to your preference, unless it specifically allows for multiple interpretations. Basically, you, as an "undefined theist", are the proud owner of your own religious ideas unless you are actually confused (in which case arguing with you is impossible). While I have no idea how you would logically justify the creation of your own religion unless a representative of god/god personally visited you and told you to do it, but on the other hand unless you define your religion coherently I cannot argue against it, simply to prevent misunderstanding.

Techeth
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Posted 03/26/08 - 04:27 PM:	#129
Lex wrote: Well, my argument is dependent on facts. I obviously cannot argue with you if you say something like "my definition of god does is not the same as that of the church", since you deliberately say that you are not trying to be clear. Hence I cannot make any certain statements. I can only argue against that which is well-defined: each religion in particular. Funny you seemed happy to make certain statements about my beliefs What facts? You have yet to present any facts Okay so tell me what is the churches definition of God? Lex wrote: Yes you do. Simply put, you create your own religion once you decide to redefine an existing one to your preference, unless it specifically allows for multiple interpretations. Basically, you, as an "undefined theist", are the proud owner of your own religious ideas unless you are actually confused (in which case arguing with you is impossible). While I have no idea how you would logically justify the creation of your own religion unless a representative of god/god personally visited you and told you to do it, but on the other hand unless you define your religion coherently I cannot argue against it, simply to prevent misunderstanding. According to your logic, there are millions of religions in the world because I don't know two people who agree on everything about God. Either that or you truly believe that the people that believe in any particular religion have somehow discovered the art of agreeing on everything. Every, where, when and how of the mystery of God, and for those who believe God is everything, well, as you can imagine debates within religion are not much to write home about. The reason you can't argue with me is because you don't know enough about my reasoning, and I don't want to argue with you, so I am trying to limit this to the basic point. I am not here to argue my religion I am here to answer your question. I would rather try and stick to topic. No offense but this may require you to do some thinking for yourself. Edited by Techeth on 03/27/08 - 04:16 AM
Studying is like rowing against the current, if you are not moving forward, you are moving backward. - Chinese proverb Life's a bitch but God forbid the bitch divorce me! - Anon Silence makes the soul feel sick - Timid Timothy

moonlight
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Posted 03/27/08 - 08:23 AM:	#130
BitterCrank wrote: Now, wait a minute. Are you saying that we have no control over what we believe, or that we have no control over the beliefs we were taught Yes, to an extent, that is what I'm saying. It is not so categorical however. Maybe the following analogy will help you understand my point better: we have as much control over our beliefs, as we do over our breathing. In other words, just like we are capable of consciously holding a specific breath at times, we are capable of holding a specific belief - consciously that is - at times. Just like we are capable of switching breaths, of inspiring and expiring slowly or rapidly and voluntarily - at times - we are also capable of switching beliefs, slowly, rapidly, and voluntarily at times too. However in the vast majority of our lifetime, our breaths are taken and released unconsciously, and our beliefs are held and released unconsciously. That is what I meant by "we have no control over our beliefs". Most are assumed unconsciously. Cordially, moonlight. P.S. Sophistry, I think JAC has pretty much summarized my point of view concisely and to the point. My hat off to him for this! There is more common ground to our positions than you seem to think from what I've read in your last answer. However there are some irreconciliable positions too. Clarifying everything would take long. I'd love to continue this chat at some later point if time permits, or perhaps on another thread. Cordially, moonlight.
All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusion is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce -

Lex
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Posted 03/27/08 - 02:10 PM:	#131
Techeth wrote: Funny you seemed happy to make certain statements about my beliefs No such thing ("happy", eh?). You even admitted to being deliberately ambiguous and now you accuse me of misinterpreting an innately ambiguous statement? Tsk tsk. Techeth wrote: What facts? You have yet to present any facts All my arguments have been demands for factual argument (read beginning) or responses to others' comments. I already asked the question I wanted to ask: Why do I as a representative of the human race need god? and made the statement: religion is harmful to humanity, therefore cannot fit with its own definition (it is benevolent by definition), therefore modern church is based on lies (intrinsically)/ misinterpreting things in a MAJOR way: in any case, religion is wrong. Techeth wrote: Okay so tell me what is the churches definition of God? It will take 40 billion characters. Read the bible instead, will be easier. Without the irony: the bible is the church's (christian) definition of god and religion, simply put. Because it is the word of god, is the LAW. Techeth wrote: According to your logic, there are millions of religions in the world because I don't know two people who agree on everything about God. Either that or you truly believe that the people that believe in any particular religion have somehow discovered the art of agreeing on everything. Every, where, when and how of the mystery of God, and for those who believe God is everything, well, as you can imagine debates within religion are not much to write home about. You catch on fast. According to my definition there are indeed millions/billions of religions. God is not bipolar. God KNOWS what he wants (if he exists), so if 2 people disagree about how to interpret him, 1 is wrong or both are wrong if they are talking about the same god: hence they are talking about slightly different gods in their own definitions. Techeth wrote: The reason you can't argue with me is because you don't know enough about my reasoning, and I don't want to argue with you, so I am trying to limit this to the basic point. I am not here to argue my religion I am here to answer your question. I would rather try and stick to topic. No offense but this may require you to do some thinking for yourself. Me not sticking to topic? I have been explaining for the past ten-ish posts random things to you. You said I misinterpret your statements: in the process of my discussion with you about that, you admitted that you are not even trying to be clear, hence it was your fault if I misinterpreted something. Obviously that was a ridiculous accusation. Now you are again going off topic, and in the process advising ME to stay on topic. So I believe I have given enough evidence for my desire for a LOGICAL argument, so would YOU please get back on topic? (of this post). By the way: offense taken. That was a badly covered-up random attack: I never accused you of not thinking, nevertheless, you insulted me by saying that I did not do any thinking for myself. Immature. So either make a logical and on-topic argument, or stop the randomness.

Techeth
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Posted 03/27/08 - 03:31 PM:	#132
Lex... Lex... Lex You know I like you I really do. I fear for you but I do like you. It was not an insult, although it should have been, I was simply saying that the answers I have given you, as well as many others seem insufficient to please your very specific perspective, so if you are to find an answer you may have to look for it rather than ask. I for one cannot understand why you feel this question is unanswered. If you wish to ask questions just to tell people they are idiots, then you'll need to find someone else to play with I am tired No offense (but feel free to take it if you please), most of what you have written above is just funny. I don't agree with most of what you have interpreted, I mean just looking at what you've written I don't know what to say, whether about me or you’re so called proof, I can only put my hands up, shrug my shoulders, smile and walk away. We live on different planets my friend, good luck with yours.
Studying is like rowing against the current, if you are not moving forward, you are moving backward. - Chinese proverb Life's a bitch but God forbid the bitch divorce me! - Anon Silence makes the soul feel sick - Timid Timothy

Lex
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Posted 03/27/08 - 08:48 PM:	#133
Unfortunately you gave me no answer whatsoever, and neither did anyone else. I am a bit disappointed since you apparently do not realize that I am not looking for an answer. I am making an argument. If somebody can answer my question, they will succeed in convincing me of their point. I did not interpret anything. All I heard were your random comments that made no sense. Nobody even began to address my question, and if you actually think someone did, I feel a bit sorry for you. In any case do notice that all of your arguments so far had nothing whatsoever to do with discussion.

ForTeeToo
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Posted 03/28/08 - 07:15 AM:	#134
Why do I need god ? You don't, god needs you...

J.D.
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Posted 04/13/08 - 04:32 PM:	#135
There's too much to read! T_T I'll just reply based on your first post. It's kinda funny how worked up you're getting over this, as if Christians crawl down your throat about God's existence and the bible being true. They don't really. You can make outrageous claims that they do, but they don't. If they annoy you so much, it must mean that you remain in an area full of Christians and provoke them by telling them their God is false. So that raises another issue, why do you care so much? I think atheism is a religion in itself. You all set out with the intention of disproving the existence of God, rather than just sitting back and choosing not to believe despite what others may believe. That being said, I'm not exactly a die-hard Christian, but I get sick of seeing people challenging the poor victims of their own provocatives. It's like siblings poking each other. One pokes the other, the other pokes back, then the first one gets annoyed because HE wants be the only one allowed to annoy others. It's quite hypocritical. So anyway, I want to give this post a purpose, so, if you want my in-depth opinion on God, see my other thread- "Soft proof of a higher existence". It's not solid proof, but it's a likely conclusion in my opinion. It's based on a lot of assumptions, so it just depends on your point of view. I really don't see how you want something more than that though. I mean we can't prove it true once and for all, so don't ask that of anyone...doing that much should prevent their classic comeback, "prove it false", to ever make an appearance. It's a redundant argument because neither side can win. EDIT: I guess I forgot what the original question was. ^^;; My answer is that you don't really. Some people may tell you that you'll go to hell for not believing, others will say that praying helps in times of need, and people like me will say that if he's truly peace-loving and loves all people equally, then he should send you to heaven or hell based on the person you are. I mean, opinions vary from Christian to Christian, but your best answers probably will come from the ones that are more laid back about it. They're not so tense, and they're more open minded. I think your bad-mouthing their religion makes them not want to talk to you. That only attracts the type of Christians who are hard-headed and typically a little extremist at times. They feel like it's necessary to defend their religion because it's right and everyone else is wrong, lol. Edited by J.D. on 04/13/08 - 04:43 PM
"I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind." -RenÃ© Descartes, Cogito ergo sum

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Posted 04/13/08 - 05:01 PM:	#136
J.D. wrote: It's kinda funny how worked up you're getting over this, as if Christians crawl down your throat about God's existence and the bible being true. They don't really. You can make outrageous claims that they do, but they don't. If they annoy you so much, it must mean that you remain in an area full of Christians and provoke them by telling them their God is false. So that raises another issue, why do you care so much? I think atheism is a religion in itself. You all set out with the intention of disproving the existence of God, rather than just sitting back and choosing not to believe despite what others may believe. Sadly, it is not quite that simple. Religion has infected our culture and thinking to such an extent that is has a considerable impact on everybody's lives. There are so many examples of this that it hardly seems necessary to cite specific instances, but if forced I might mention the 9/11 attacks on New York, the influence of the Vatican on the adoption of contraception, the hostility to stem cell research that might provide treatments for conditions like Parkinson's, mandatory school prayer in countries like the UK, the requirement to profess religious faith in order to gain political office in the US, the toleration of priests whose job it is to lie to children for a living, intolerance to homosexuality, scaring children into believing in hellfire, or the promotion of ingroup-outgroup attitudes that results in, at best segregation, and at worst bloody warfare. So, unfortunately I can't just stand by, safe in the knowledge that at least I have not been infected by dogma. This kind of thinking presents far too much danger to everybody for any of us to adopt a passive attitude. J.D. wrote: I mean we can't prove it true once and for all, so don't ask that of anyone...doing that much should prevent their classic comeback, "prove it false", to ever make an appearance. It's a redundant argument because neither side can win. But, of course, I don't have to 'prove it false'. The onus of proof is on the theist. The reasonable person will operate on the principle that some evidence must be given for a proposition in order for it to be considered true. Otherwise I would have to adopt all possible propositions as true and work through proving them false one by one. The example I gave earlier in this thread is 'there are fairies in orbit around Proxima Centauri'. Of course I cannot prove this false, but I am not going to worry about about it, because there is no reason to think that it might be true.
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J.D.
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Posted 04/13/08 - 06:32 PM:	#137
Well I don't know what to tell you. I mean sure some religions could bother you, but don't group Christians in with the Muslims that attacked us. Even the most extreme Christians don't live up to that kind of thing. Also, before you do so, don't group all Christians in with the extremists, and don't group me in with typical Christians. Really though, what I was saying is, if I were to go into a crowd of Muslims, the last thing I'd do is try to tell them there is no "Allah". Of course I oppose it, and I oppose the morals of their religion on many levels, but it would be totally and completely futile to try to convince them otherwise, rendering my argument useless. We all want to make a difference for the better, even if just a little, but you're trying to take on an impossible task. I mean these are the type of people that are always right, even if they're wrong, you know what I mean? As for once again telling me that I need proof, I really have to say that no, I don't. I WOULD, however, given that I was trying to convince you to become a Christian. Since I'm not though, I don't need to prove anything. Besides, if we had proof, we wouldn't need to call it a belief, nor a theory. For now we can all just live peacefully and respect each others' beliefs. That's all we CAN do. Anything else will only create conflict, and won't make any "situations" any better, try as you may.
"I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind." -RenÃ© Descartes, Cogito ergo sum

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Posted 04/13/08 - 06:59 PM:	#138
J.D. wrote: Well I don't know what to tell you. I mean sure some religions could bother you, but don't group Christians in with the Muslims that attacked us. Even the most extreme Christians don't live up to that kind of thing. Also, before you do so, don't group all Christians in with the extremists, and don't group me in with typical Christians. You don't think Christians have committed comparable atrocities? I suppose it's rather boring and hackneyed to look back to the Crusades and the Inquisition, so how about we talk about the KKK, who have lynched innumerable black Americans, or the Army of God, who have shot and killed two abortion doctors, or Christian Identity, which carried out bombings across the southern United States, or the White Eagles, who carried out a number of atrocities and massacres during the Croatian and Bosnian wars while calling for a 'Christian, Orthodox Serbia with no Muslims and no unbelievers'? I could go on, and on, and on. I know that you and many others like you do not do such things, but you asked why people are bothering to argue against religion, and why we sometimes get angry. Well this is why. J.D. wrote: Really though, what I was saying is, if I were to go into a crowd of Muslims, the last thing I'd do is try to tell them there is no "Allah". Of course I oppose it, and I oppose the morals of their religion on many levels, but it would be totally and completely futile to try to convince them otherwise, rendering my argument useless. It's a hard problem, I admit. But does that mean we shouldn't try? It might take a long time. Perhaps longer than my lifetime (although I very much doubt it), but we should make a beginning. I forgot to ask in my last post: why do you think that atheism is a religion?
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J.D.
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Posted 04/13/08 - 09:44 PM:	#139
Sophistry wrote: You don't think Christians have committed comparable atrocities? I suppose it's rather boring and hackneyed to look back to the Crusades and the Inquisition, so how about we talk about the KKK, who have lynched innumerable black Americans, or the Army of God, who have shot and killed two abortion doctors, or Christian Identity, which carried out bombings across the southern United States, or the White Eagles, who carried out a number of atrocities and massacres during the Croatian and Bosnian wars while calling for a 'Christian, Orthodox Serbia with no Muslims and no unbelievers'? I could go on, and on, and on. I know that you and many others like you do not do such things, but you asked why people are bothering to argue against religion, and why we sometimes get angry. Well this is why. Wait, the KKK was Christian? I didn't know that, lol...The More You Know. XP So anyway, I don't think that religion is the cause of these crimes. I think it's roots go deeper than that, like human nature. Just because some groups kill in the name of religion does not mean that the majority of religious people support those groups. If I were to break down the statistics, I'd be willing to bet that one out of every million Christians actually agree with the views of those brutes that kill people like that. I'd also like to point out that there have probably been numerous atheist or at least secular groups that have committed similar crimes. It's almost like hating blacks because they commit the most crime. It's a hard problem, I admit. But does that mean we shouldn't try? It might take a long time. Perhaps longer than my lifetime (although I very much doubt it), but we should make a beginning. I forgot to ask in my last post: why do you think that atheism is a religion? I suppose one should always try, yeah, but an internet forum is not probably the first place you would find the true trouble-makers. I'm not trying to sound arrogant but, I just don't like to see people picking fights like this. I personally think atheism is a religion in itself because atheists are so loyal to it's unwritten rules, like trying to convert Christians to atheism, researching and understanding everything it means to be an atheist, trying to blame Christians for the world's problems, trying to spread the word that there is no God, e.t.c.. I don't understand why they feel so strongly on the issue. Why do they need to be so...well, religious about it?
"I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind." -RenÃ© Descartes, Cogito ergo sum

Techeth
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Posted 04/14/08 - 05:45 AM:	#140
Sophistry wrote: Sadly, it is not quite that simple. Religion has infected our culture and thinking to such an extent that is has a considerable impact on everybody's lives. There are so many examples of this that it hardly seems necessary to cite specific instances, but if forced I might mention the 9/11 attacks on New York, the influence of the Vatican on the adoption of contraception, the hostility to stem cell research that might provide treatments for conditions like Parkinson's, mandatory school prayer in countries like the UK, the requirement to profess religious faith in order to gain political office in the US, the toleration of priests whose job it is to lie to children for a living, intolerance to homosexuality, scaring children into believing in hellfire, or the promotion of ingroup-outgroup attitudes that results in, at best segregation, and at worst bloody warfare. So, unfortunately I can't just stand by, safe in the knowledge that at least I have not been infected by dogma. This kind of thinking presents far too much danger to everybody for any of us to adopt a passive attitude. Although I would strongly argue most of what you have written is not promoted by ANY religion, and mandatory prayer left schools before I did, and non faith or other faith students simply didn't pray, there are terrible thing that have been sanctioned. But I think it's important to remember these weren't isolated, they weren't happening despite the rest of the world. I can understand why people blame religious groups when they seem to fall from their high horse, but people make it sound as though they fell below the standards of the rest of the world. Like only religions went to war, had slaves, abused children and homosexuals while the rest of the world made hay while the sun shined! I realise they should be beyond moral reproach but that's never going to happen.
Studying is like rowing against the current, if you are not moving forward, you are moving backward. - Chinese proverb Life's a bitch but God forbid the bitch divorce me! - Anon Silence makes the soul feel sick - Timid Timothy

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Posted 04/14/08 - 10:16 AM:	#141
J.D. wrote: Wait, the KKK was Christian? I didn't know that, lol...The More You Know. XP So anyway, I don't think that religion is the cause of these crimes. I think it's roots go deeper than that, like human nature. Just because some groups kill in the name of religion does not mean that the majority of religious people support those groups. If I were to break down the statistics, I'd be willing to bet that one out of every million Christians actually agree with the views of those brutes that kill people like that. I'd also like to point out that there have probably been numerous atheist or at least secular groups that have committed similar crimes. It's almost like hating blacks because they commit the most crime. I suppose one should always try, yeah, but an internet forum is not probably the first place you would find the true trouble-makers. I'm not trying to sound arrogant but, I just don't like to see people picking fights like this. I personally think atheism is a religion in itself because atheists are so loyal to it's unwritten rules, like trying to convert Christians to atheism, researching and understanding everything it means to be an atheist, trying to blame Christians for the world's problems, trying to spread the word that there is no God, e.t.c.. I don't understand why they feel so strongly on the issue. Why do they need to be so...well, religious about it? IMO, the "roots" are even deeper than you think. The desire to destroy outsiders to keep the clan strong is ancient and part of our evolutionary path. The KKK is nothing more than a thinly veiled caveman clan. They are huddled together around the fire terrified of the unknown. But, we have evolved and tempered ourselves enough to suppress those primitive reactions. Well...some of us have. Regarding your comments about rabid athients...Yes, there are extremists in every group. I am an atheist but I do not preach from the soap box. To the contrary, I believe the preaching is the problem. For instance, just because I don't believe in any god, does not mean I don't think anyone else should not believe. It's every humans right to believe whatever they want to. AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT INTERFERE WITH EVERYONE ELSE'S RIGHTS. Therein lies the problem. Religion, by definition has a codex. A written rule set. Atheism does not. It's the organizational hierarchy and the rules which are almost always out of tune with the present which present the most issues for society as a whole. The believers themselves are not the problem. It's like saying a whole race is a problem, when it's really a cultural issue.

Lex
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Posted 04/14/08 - 07:08 PM:	#142
Religion is not just a root, it is a veil. Justification for action. 500 years ago, millions of YOU were sitting around telling everyone how wonderful religion is while somebody was being skinned alive for the glory of god. Complete blindness: you cannot even distinguish right and wrong because you wrap yourself in ignorance. Today, most humans would call members of the Inquisition or the KKK barbaric. Before, they were heroes, believe it or not. The scary thing is, humans are like pet dogs: can be taught anything. Hence people tell me: why do you even care? Because I live in this world, damn it.

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Posted 04/14/08 - 07:35 PM: Subject: Selflessness	#143
Why are you selfless if there is no God? Why put yourself at risk/expend time that could be "better" spend on food gathering/eating or reproduction. The awarness of right from wrong is an absolute scandale to atheistic evolution without a sould and even if you can "overcome" this important point, how did the big bang start without God (who is out of time) from nothingness( remeber that the creation of the universe also includes gravity, time, and physics)

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Posted 04/15/08 - 07:34 AM:	#144
Lex wrote: Here is my challenge: I say that I can be a better person than any christian or other theist without believing in a deity. I also believe that murder is wrong and believe in helping people and not being selfish. I do not claim to do it for the prize (going to heaven) or out of fear (going to hell). It's quite selfish to be good because god will reward you for it, don't you think? So why should I believe in this entity? Even if it did exist? Why are you people out there claiming to be good when you are actually useless? Oh but I forgot how useful religion can be. We can't do without the crusades, the inquisition and child-molesting priests now, can we. Hello, Yoy ask that, assuming an omnipotent, omniscient entity called god exists, why should you believe in it? Well, assuming that this entity is the Christian God, the first reason would ostensibly be 'fire insurance.' I.E. If there is a Christian God, then there is most likely a Devil and a hell, both of which, by pretty much every description, are things any sane person would want to avoid. Of course, some Christians would say that hell as a fiery, tormenting, etc. place doesn't exist, and it is actually on eternal separation from God. Regardless, the opposite would inevitably be much preferable. Also, there is simply reason. If God does not exist and you believe in Him, you will live a 'good' life even by the standards of athiests. Hurting no one, helping the poor, etc. (Yes, I know some pretty terrible stuff has been done in the name of religion, but then, everything evil that was done was because of straying from the true doctrines of the religion, at least the Christian one.) If, however, God does exist and you don't believe in Him, it would go bad for you. Secondly, any entity that exists would prabably be a bit peeved if people claimed that it didn't. The image that comes to mind is that of a child sticking its fingers in its ears and humming loudly so as not to hear anything it doesn't like. No offense is meant by this example. But, if God exists, and is inifnately powerful, it might not be the best idea to annoy Him. Would it? You could, of course argue that the Christian God is good, and therefore would not hurt you because of your unbelief. However, an infinately good entity would seek to do good for others. Beliefe in God blesses (or otherwise generally helps) the believers, or so His book says, so wouldn't a good God want to bring that blessing to others? If the only way to make you a believer would be to get your attention, and you were not listening to Him, his only way to get your attention might just be through suffering, hardship, etc. No threat intended. On the other hand, if you are blessed by an omnipotent being then you would probably live a good life. Just food for though. Hoka Hey! DarkHorse
History is the only laboratory we have in which to test the consequences of thought.--Etienne Gilson

Techeth
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Posted 04/15/08 - 05:21 PM:	#145
Lex wrote: Religion is not just a root, it is a veil. Justification for action. 500 years ago, millions of YOU were sitting around telling everyone how wonderful religion is while somebody was being skinned alive for the glory of god. Complete blindness: you cannot even distinguish right and wrong because you wrap yourself in ignorance. Today, most humans would call members of the Inquisition or the KKK barbaric. Before, they were heroes, believe it or not. The scary thing is, humans are like pet dogs: can be taught anything. Hence people tell me: why do you even care? Because I live in this world, damn it. I'm sure you've been abused by many people or 'pet dogs' in you life, but what you are saying is no different than a black person saying the same thing just changing religion to white people. I don't suppose you hold the same position in regard to white people do you? I'm glad you care I have no problem with that, as I imagine the many people both religious and non that have evolved beyond a kanine level do. Keep your chin up!
Studying is like rowing against the current, if you are not moving forward, you are moving backward. - Chinese proverb Life's a bitch but God forbid the bitch divorce me! - Anon Silence makes the soul feel sick - Timid Timothy

Sophistry
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Posted 04/15/08 - 06:30 PM:	#146
J.D. wrote: Wait, the KKK was Christian? I didn't know that, lol...The More You Know. XP Not only was it Christian, it still is Christian. In fact the Klan website states that the only requirement for joining is that you have a 'Christian character'. J.D. wrote: So anyway, I don't think that religion is the cause of these crimes. I think it's roots go deeper than that, like human nature. Just because some groups kill in the name of religion does not mean that the majority of religious people support those groups. If I were to break down the statistics, I'd be willing to bet that one out of every million Christians actually agree with the views of those brutes that kill people like that. OK, if I take you correctly you seem to be arguing that religious terror groups are abusing religion or misrepresenting it in some way. In fact, these people are perfectly justified in claiming that the holy texts they quote support what they are doing. Both the Bible and the Koran are littered with incitements to violence against almost any group you could imagine. This is what the Koran has to say about non-believers: 4.89 : They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. The Bible stipulates the death penalty for the following offences (among many others): Disobedience to parents (Exodus 21:15 Breaking the sabbath (Exodus 31:12-17) Adultery (Leviticus 20:10) Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16) So when these people go about saying that they kill people because their religion tells them to, they are not abusing these texts, they are using them quite properly. And I wasn't complaining only about terrorism and violence but about a panoply of other problems created by religion (which I hint at in an earlier post and won't repeat here). J.D. wrote: I'd also like to point out that there have probably been numerous atheist or at least secular groups that have committed similar crimes. Of course there have been atheist people who have committed crimes. The usual - by now hackneyed - examples are Stalin and Mao and the rest. But the key difference is that the crimes these people perpetrated did not happen as a result of their atheism. Islamic suicide bombers (and we know this because they have told us so before they went to blow themselves up) commit their crimes precisely because their religion told them that they ought to be killing people and that they would go to heaven and find 72 virgins waiting for them as a result. J.D. wrote: I personally think atheism is a religion in itself because atheists are so loyal to it's unwritten rules, like trying to convert Christians to atheism, researching and understanding everything it means to be an atheist, trying to blame Christians for the world's problems, trying to spread the word that there is no God, e.t.c.. I don't understand why they feel so strongly on the issue. Why do they need to be so...well, religious about it? Well, I've tried to explain why I feel so strongly. I don't know why 'researching and understanding' makes it a religion. Atheism can't possibly be a religion because it isn't anything. It is the lack of a certain belief. You might as well say that a-fairyism or a-UFOism are religions
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ADD
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Posted 04/15/08 - 09:18 PM:	#147
Religion has not failed mankind, society has failed mankind. Religion has been a vehicle for society. Society is a monster. Society is the slavemaster. The world has changed (for humans) faster in the last 2k years than all of human history combined. I read a comment talking about man being slaves' in caves. How absurd. How condescending. Chronological snobbery. Men were slaves to mother earth, to God. Now you are slaves to society. Consider the story of Adam and Eve. Perhaps, this story is refering to two individuals who populated the earth after their transgression. It is my belief this story is about the movement of people from dependency upon nature to civilization. Bottom line.... food production (apple/tree). Mankind has given itself to the dependency of itself. So /b why do I need God?/b? Apparantly not. We are masters of our environment and slaves to our "institutions". This is not what God wills. We are living in amazing times friends. Beware of false prophets. Quit looking for answers from God among men. You will never find empirical evidence or proof. The end of civilization is near. What about mankind? If we survive, it will be nothing like it is now. You will fend for yourselves. You will depend on God who breaths life in to all things. Then you may know mercy. Then you may know peace. Answer to your question: You will find no peace without God. However you choose to know him or call him. Remeber, Jesus Christ was every bit as offended as you by all biblical accounts(pertaining to the institution of church and state).

Sophistry
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Posted 04/16/08 - 05:45 AM:	#148
Menmanrad wrote: Why are you selfless if there is no God? Why put yourself at risk/expend time that could be "better" spend on food gathering/eating or reproduction. The awarness of right from wrong is an absolute scandale to atheistic evolution without a sould and even if you can "overcome" this important point, how did the big bang start without God (who is out of time) from nothingness( remeber that the creation of the universe also includes gravity, time, and physics) Are you saying that the only reason you are a moral person is that God tells you to be? I am a moral person because morality is something innate in my nature and I feel solidarity with the rest of humanity. Just toadying up to God seems a pretty shallow reason to behave selflessly. As for your second argument, see this thread - http://forums.philosophyforums.com/threads/soft-p... - for why it is wrong.
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Techeth
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Posted 04/16/08 - 05:58 AM:	#149
Sophistry wrote: Not only was it Christian, it still is Christian. In fact the Klan website states that the only requirement for joining is that you have a 'Christian character'. OK, if I take you correctly you seem to be arguing that religious terror groups are abusing religion or misrepresenting it in some way. In fact, these people are perfectly justified in claiming that the holy texts they quote support what they are doing. Both the Bible and the Koran are littered with incitements to violence against almost any group you could imagine. This is what the Koran has to say about non-believers: 4.89 : They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. The Bible stipulates the death penalty for the following offences (among many others): Disobedience to parents (Exodus 21:15 Breaking the sabbath (Exodus 31:12-17) Adultery (Leviticus 20:10) Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16) So when these people go about saying that they kill people because their religion tells them to, they are not abusing these texts, they are using them quite properly. And I wasn't complaining only about terrorism and violence but about a panoply of other problems created by religion (which I hint at in an earlier post and won't repeat here). Of course there have been atheist people who have committed crimes. The usual - by now hackneyed - examples are Stalin and Mao and the rest. But the key difference is that the crimes these people perpetrated did not happen as a result of their atheism. Islamic suicide bombers (and we know this because they have told us so before they went to blow themselves up) commit their crimes precisely because their religion told them that they ought to be killing people and that they would go to heaven and find 72 virgins waiting for them as a result. Well, I've tried to explain why I feel so strongly. I don't know why 'researching and understanding' makes it a religion. Atheism can't possibly be a religion because it isn't anything. It is the lack of a certain belief. You might as well say that a-fairyism or a-UFOism are religions I am no expert on the Bible or the Koran so I can't argue the context of your quotes, I can only imagine. Although I am curious what it is to "fly your home in Allah's way" again I can only imagine. Forgive me if I'm wrong but when you say "their religion told them" do you mean they came to this conculsion independantly of others, that they simply read a passage and decided to blow themselves up or they had some kind of revelation? Do you often take people at their word in propaganda videos? So is your position religion is irresponsible in giving people so much to think about as people may decide to only see the negative and ignore the positive, they can't be trusted? Or are you suggesting the Bible and Koran only say kill people and nothing about loving others and living in harmony? And do you really think the KKK mean Christian when they use it that way, do you not think they mean their personal view of what a 'true' Christian looks like?
Studying is like rowing against the current, if you are not moving forward, you are moving backward. - Chinese proverb Life's a bitch but God forbid the bitch divorce me! - Anon Silence makes the soul feel sick - Timid Timothy

Sophistry
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Posted 04/16/08 - 06:13 AM:	#150
Techeth wrote: I am no expert on the Bible or the Koran so I can't argue the context of your quotes, I can only imagine. Although I am curious what it is to "fly your home in Allah's way" again I can only imagine. Forgive me if I'm wrong but when you say "their religion told them" do you mean they came to this conculsion independantly of others, that they simply read a passage and decided to blow themselves up or they had some kind of revelation? Do you often take people at their word in propaganda videos? So is your position religion is irresponsible in giving people so much to think about as people may decide to only see the negative and ignore the positive, they can't be trusted? Or are you suggesting the Bible and Koran only say kill people and nothing about loving others and living in harmony? What I mean is that when you give somebody a book and tell them that it is the holy word of an almighty God and that book tells them explicitly to kill people, then don't be surprised when they go about killing people. Of course these books also say some good things. But even if the Bible was 99% good and then said at the end 'By the way, you ought to be killing everybody who doesn't agree with you' then it's enough to convince some people to do so so. Of course, it's not 99% good, it's an utterly repulsive, immoral bloodbath of rape, genocide, and execution from start to finish. And why do I need the Bible to tell me the good things? I already know that murder is wrong and that I ought to be nice to people. I managed to figure that out all by myself. Why do I need a holy book that also advocates all kinds of terrible things? By the way, if you are able to separate the good from the bad in these books, by what criterion are you doing so? Techeth wrote: And do you really think the KKK mean Christian when they use it that way, do you not think they mean their personal view of what a 'true' Christian looks like? Yes, they really do mean 'Christian'. Check out their website if you don't believe me - http://www.kkk.bz/jesus_christ_warned_his_disciple.htm .
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