Why do chickens lay eggs?: Philosophy Forums

Philosophy Forums » Philosophy of Science » Science » Why do chickens lay eggs? » Why do chickens lay eggs?

Why do chickens lay eggs?

Page: 1 2 3

Why do chickens lay eggs?

J. Random Hacker
banned

Usergroup: Sponsors
Joined: Apr 11, 2009

Total Topics: 12
Total Posts: 479

Posted 05/13/09 - 07:27 PM:	#11
ying wrote: Yeah, that's an ad hoc argument or an after the facts explanation. Should it be before the facts?

ying
I ♥ Scepticism

Usergroup: Moderators
Joined: Feb 20, 2004
Location: Lichtenvoorde, Netherlands

Total Topics: 18
Total Posts: 1485

Posted 05/13/09 - 07:34 PM:	#12
J. Random Hacker wrote: Should it be before the facts? If we wish to establish A, then "A because B" is valid ("B" being a cause of "A"). But if we want to establish B, then "A because B" isn't ("A" being an effect of "B"). http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#adhoc
*"I determined nothing."* -Sceptical expression

J. Random Hacker
banned

Usergroup: Sponsors
Joined: Apr 11, 2009

Total Topics: 12
Total Posts: 479

Posted 05/13/09 - 07:39 PM:	#13
ying wrote: If we wish to establish A, then "A because B" is valid. But if we want to establish B, then "A because B" isn't. http://www.infidels.org/library/mo...w/logic.html#adhoc[/quote] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrodiction

ying
I ♥ Scepticism

Usergroup: Moderators
Joined: Feb 20, 2004
Location: Lichtenvoorde, Netherlands

Total Topics: 18
Total Posts: 1485

Posted 05/13/09 - 07:48 PM:	#14
J. Random Hacker wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrodiction[/quote] Yeah, just re-read your post (#6). You weren't responding to Unenlighteneds first post. My bad.
*"I determined nothing."* -Sceptical expression

Cadrache
Tenured Poster

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Dec 09, 2006
Location: AB, Canada

Total Topics: 104
Total Posts: 2644

Posted 05/13/09 - 09:43 PM:	#15
Maybe not so much an external application; but in part the origins might derive from whichever type of bacteria the complex life started from. The form of cell division combined with the type of existing materials may have determined the solidity of the external wall. A more solid outer membrane may have given rise to a higher survivability during the early years of life. Of course; that makes the general assumption that different single cell bacteria takes the same amount of time (figuratively) to evolve to a viable multi-cell platform. Edited by Cadrache on 05/13/09 - 09:49 PM. Reason: missed a word
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion. _____________________________________________ Truth is want. - The internal state of matters. Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.

Cuthbert
Tenured Poster

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Mar 18, 2005

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 2138

Posted 05/13/09 - 11:24 PM:	#16
Is it 'after the fact'? It seems to be an explanation why laying eggs early has relative survival value: the bird can lay more eggs and get around more easily. So genes that determine later egg-laying would tend to be selected out, because the phenotypes would lay fewer eggs and be less mobile.

ying
I ♥ Scepticism

Usergroup: Moderators
Joined: Feb 20, 2004
Location: Lichtenvoorde, Netherlands

Total Topics: 18
Total Posts: 1485

Posted 05/13/09 - 11:58 PM:	#17
Cuthbert wrote: Is it 'after the fact'? It seems to be an explanation why laying eggs early has relative survival value: the bird can lay more eggs and get around more easily. So genes that determine later egg-laying would tend to be selected out, because the phenotypes would lay fewer eggs and be less mobile. It is, if the question is why chickens lay eggs. That's not what JRH was responding to though. He was responding to post #4 of Unenlightened, who stated: Unenlightened wrote: ...we should come up with some speculative advantage to laying your eggs and sitting on them as opposed to keeping them within the body. ... Which I didn't bother to read the first round through...
*"I determined nothing."* -Sceptical expression

YadaYada
fool

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Jun 12, 2004
Location: in the past

Total Topics: 5
Total Posts: 316

Posted 05/20/09 - 05:25 PM:	#18
ying wrote: "What came first, the chicken or the egg?" Both. Laying eggs is a characteristic of species and not of individual birds. Yeah, that's an ad hoc argument or an after the facts explanation. Science, especially historical science, is loaded with these. I don't even think causation can be established with certainty. There are so many possible "environmental" factors all of which need to be ruled out to be sure.
{}{}{}{ . . . }{}{}{ . . . }{}{}{}{}{ . . . We may assume the superiority ceteris paribus of the demonstration which derives from fewer postulates ~ Aristotle

BoogerBrains
Initiate

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Aug 07, 2009

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 8

Posted 08/07/09 - 07:28 PM:	#19
There is a paper by Steven J. Gould about the spandrels of San Marco and the adaptationist paradigm. In short, the San Marco cathedral has a bunch of pretty spandrels where the arches meet, and they are decorated and look intentional. We might ask, why are those spandrels there? We could easily come up with the answer that they are a designed architectural element; the spandrels were put there because they are aesthetically pleasing. In fact, spandrels are just what happens when you stick two arches next to each other. Arches are necessary, spandrels are just the result of arches. The adaptationist paradigm attempts to come up with an evolutionary reason for every trait. The fact is, much of evolution is dependent on historical contingency and constraint. Constraints may be trade-offs, or just historical legacy, phylogenetic constraint. Birds lay eggs because it works. Birds lay eggs because their ancestors laid eggs and passed their egg laying genes on. If a bird lays slightly smaller eggs, or keeps them inside for slightly longer, or whatever, and that results in more genes being passed on disproportionately more than other genes, before long, that will become the norm. Birds have been enormously successful laying eggs. Every egg-laying bird carries genes with a lineage going back over 3 billion years. Those egg-laying genes could not have been more successful. Evolution is pass-fail. Egg laying passes. We might also ask why don't humans have wings like birds, wouldn't being able to fly be better than not being able to fly? Again, we don't have the evolutionary history of wing development. We don't have the developmental pathways for growing wings. We don't have the skeletal and muscular structure necessary for wings. Birds don't have the placenta or the mammary glands we do. And if it ain't broke, don't fix it. We have a greater than 3 billion year ancestry also. That doesn't mean we are optimized in every respect. It means we have what it takes to survive and reproduce. Incidentally, another example is the explanation that fingers evolved to type on keyboards, seeing as how they are so good at it. This is obviously not true, but the point is that we use what we evolved to accomplish our goals. Birds use eggs to reproduce because they are good for reproducing. We use fingers to type because they are good for typing. That doesn't mean they were adapted for it.

Phaedruswax
banned

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Aug 05, 2009

Total Topics: 6
Total Posts: 104

Posted 08/10/09 - 10:05 AM:	#20
What else would a chicken lay?

Page: 1 2 3

Sorry, you don't have permission to post. Log in, or register if you haven't yet.