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What is the most important document in the World?

What is the most important document in the World?

mikebell
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Posted 05/03/08 - 09:00 PM: Subject: What is the most important document in the World?	#1
Hi all, I have a quick question: What is the most important document that every human being on the planet should have access to and be able to read and understand? Reason why I ask this is because I'm disappointed in so many philosophers who are writing on topics that only few people can understand and none of them write for the lay people. The the age of 'people philosophers' or 'popular philosophers' is over which is a shame. Once you answer the question above, I doubt that the answer is a work written by a philosopher, which is disappointing. mike

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Posted 05/03/08 - 09:40 PM:	#2
Their birth certificate
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Posted 05/03/08 - 10:43 PM:	#3
mikebell wrote: Hi all, I have a quick question: What is the most important document that every human being on the planet should have access to and be able to read and understand? None. There is not one single document that is a must for every human being on the planet to read and understand. The circumstances you find yourself in will dictate what "document" you must read and understand. By document, did you mean factual or historical document? Or just about any recorded or written work? Ultimately, the minimal information one must know is at what place and time (or period) he is at a given moment: You wake up, and find yourself inside a ship container that is locked. It doesn't matter how you got there, what you want at the moment is how to get out of it. If it's at the bottom of the ocean, no amount of information, such as how long the oxygen trapped inside that container will last before you suffocate to death, could help you. You just wait there and perish. If, however, it is on the dock yard, you can bang the wall and hopefully someone hears, or opens that container before oxygen runs out, or before heat from the sun, if it's summertime, toasts you to death. So, it's important for you to know not to give up yet.
_____________________ So, you've finally figured out how reality works. Have a glass of muriatic acid, everyone.

mikebell
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Posted 05/03/08 - 11:13 PM:	#4
Caldwell wrote: None. There is not one single document that is a must for every human being on the planet to read and understand. The circumstances you find yourself in will dictate what "document" you must read and understand. By document, did you mean factual or historical document? Or just about any recorded or written work? Ultimately, the minimal information one must know is at what place and time (or period) he is at a given moment: You wake up, and find yourself inside a ship container that is locked. It doesn't matter how you got there, what you want at the moment is how to get out of it. If it's at the bottom of the ocean, no amount of information, such as how long the oxygen trapped inside that container will last before you suffocate to death, could help you. You just wait there and perish. If, however, it is on the dock yard, you can bang the wall and hopefully someone hears, or opens that container before oxygen runs out, or before heat from the sun, if it's summertime, toasts you to death. So, it's important for you to know not to give up yet. I didn't want to be too specific, but yes, I was expecting a factual document. However, I find your line of reasoning misguided. You're saying that there's nothing in the World that you'd want to convey some other human in this World?! Say you find some lost tribe in Africa, what would you teach them that would show her your culture's values? I gave this question some thoughts myself and came up with a short list (starting with the most obvious one): - UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights (very important in my opinion) - Magna Carta - US Constitution maybe - (religious people will add here their favorite holy book but I think we can do better than that) This question, btw, was sparked by a question that someone asked of famous people... and Feynman said it this way: When the great American physicist and bongo-drums player, Richard Feynman, was asked to think of a single sentence that would convey the most important scientific knowledge we possess, he answered simply: "Everything is made of atoms." One other person said: "Wash your hands"... obviously alluding to the spread of diseases through dirty hands. So I'm asking: what's the most important work/text/speech/document/etc that humanity has produced?

Caldwell
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Posted 05/03/08 - 11:34 PM:	#5
mikebell wrote: However, I find your line of reasoning misguided. Not really. You posted this under general philosophy forum. You're saying that there's nothing in the World that you'd want to convey some other human in this World?! Say you find some lost tribe in Africa, what would you teach them that would show her your culture's values? My culture's values? You asked: "What is the most important document that every human being on the planet should have access to and be able to read and understand?" Am I too arrogant to think that of all things, they would want to know about my culture, and actually think that my culture and values are the most important things for everyone on the planet to know? If anything, this is a loaded suggestion from you. I gave this question some thoughts myself and came up with a short list (starting with the most obvious one): - UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights (very important in my opinion) - Magna Carta - US Constitution maybe - (religious people will add here their favorite holy book but I think we can do better than that) What you want, therefore, is to post it in the political philosophy forum. The problem of posting under the general philosophy forum is, one cannot have implicit assumptions when asking such questions, and demand that those assumptions must be incorporated into the answer. Try telling the starving Haitian people about the US constitution. They know what their condition is, and they know without knowing the US constitution. So I'm asking: what's the most important work/text/speech/document/etc that humanity has produced? And I say again: None. There is not one single document/work/text/speech that is the most important for all people in the world. It depends on their circumstances.
_____________________ So, you've finally figured out how reality works. Have a glass of muriatic acid, everyone.

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Posted 05/06/08 - 06:23 AM:	#6
winning lottery ticket?
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keda
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Posted 05/06/08 - 06:32 AM:	#7
mikebell wrote: - UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights (very important in my opinion) Very important indeed, to read article 29: You have no rights.
_____________________ Free Europe Now The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. -Benjamin Franklin If my sons did not want wars, there would be none - Gutle Rothschild It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes - Josef Stalin Sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace - Bob Dylan A prolonged peace favours the predominance of a mere commercial spirit, and with it a debasing self-interest, cowardice, and effeminacy, and tends to degrade the character of the nation. - Immanuel Kant

Benkei
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Posted 05/06/08 - 07:05 AM:	#8
Apart from your fallacious reading of article 29, I shall direct people to article 30. Keda, it's nice you've got your own "vision of the Good Life" all figured out but at least try to not impress it on others by distorting issues. It's very tiring for me to continually correct you since I would enjoy a real argument some day.
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Posted 05/06/08 - 07:06 AM:

Article 29.

Article 30.

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Posted 05/06/08 - 07:23 AM:	#10
Benkei wrote: Article 29. [list] (3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations. This says that if the UN decides they want to take all your property and slaughter your babies for any reason, you cannot do anything about it. It doesn't matter what else is said in the whole document, its doublespeak.
_____________________ Free Europe Now The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. -Benjamin Franklin If my sons did not want wars, there would be none - Gutle Rothschild It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes - Josef Stalin Sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace - Bob Dylan A prolonged peace favours the predominance of a mere commercial spirit, and with it a debasing self-interest, cowardice, and effeminacy, and tends to degrade the character of the nation. - Immanuel Kant

Benkei
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Posted 05/06/08 - 08:17 AM:	#11
Sigh... you don't even know what the principles are. Do you understand what I mean by a proper argument? It requires you to at least know what you're talking about. And since I'm such a nice person who will tirelessly educate you about things you're apparently too lazy to look up for yourself.... taaadaaa! The principles WE THE PEOPLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS DETERMINED to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom, AND FOR THESE ENDS to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours, and to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples, HAVE RESOLVED TO COMBINE OUR EFFORTS TO ACCOMPLISH THESE AIMS Accordingly, our respective Governments, through representatives assembled in the city of San Francisco, who have exhibited their full powers found to be in good and due form, have agreed to the present Charter of the United Nations and do hereby establish an international organization to be known as the United Nations. E.g. the exercise of human rights should not lead to war, breaches of fundamental human rights, social progress and standard of life in larger freedom. In any case, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is not even a binding document so who really cares what it says?
_____________________ We all warm ourselves on fires we did not kindle. We all drink from wells we did not dig. - ancient Celtic saying

Benkei
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Posted 05/06/08 - 08:22 AM:	#12
Oh yes, and article 30 still matters in relation to article 29 for obvious reasons because the United Nations is a collection of States that has some autonomy but no autonomy to change its Charter. As to the UDHR not being a binding document, I hope you are familiar with the idea of ius cogens and the most insidious article in most Human Rights treaties is actually that of the "state of emergency". That's where the actual hole in protection is.
_____________________ We all warm ourselves on fires we did not kindle. We all drink from wells we did not dig. - ancient Celtic saying

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Posted 05/06/08 - 08:37 AM:	#13
I don't care what principles they say they adopt or what ends they say they have, sorry you wasted your time Benkei, but I don't want to hear it. According to Article 29, you are their slave, that is, you must do whatever they want.
_____________________ Free Europe Now The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. -Benjamin Franklin If my sons did not want wars, there would be none - Gutle Rothschild It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes - Josef Stalin Sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace - Bob Dylan A prolonged peace favours the predominance of a mere commercial spirit, and with it a debasing self-interest, cowardice, and effeminacy, and tends to degrade the character of the nation. - Immanuel Kant

keda
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Posted 05/06/08 - 09:00 AM:	#14
Benkei wrote: Oh yes, and article 30 still matters in relation to article 29 for obvious reasons because the United Nations is a collection of States that has some autonomy but no autonomy to change its Charter. Well it may be saying I should not do what I just did, namely interpret it in the ordinary way, but if its to be interpreted in an obscure way then who is to say any article is to be interpreted in an ordinary way?
_____________________ Free Europe Now The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. -Benjamin Franklin If my sons did not want wars, there would be none - Gutle Rothschild It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes - Josef Stalin Sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace - Bob Dylan A prolonged peace favours the predominance of a mere commercial spirit, and with it a debasing self-interest, cowardice, and effeminacy, and tends to degrade the character of the nation. - Immanuel Kant

Benkei
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Posted 05/06/08 - 10:19 AM:	#15
I suppose you interpret Kant's Critique of Pure Reason by opening it on page 563 then read that page and think you can say something sensible about it by interpreting it in an ordinary way... If you have little knowledge about international law you might want to be a little bit more reserved in your judgments and interpretations. It's a shame really, I like your posts in relation to free will and economics and such but posts like the ones related to the UDHR just seem the result of dogmatic slumber. They certainly aren't based on any proper study of the subject.
_____________________ We all warm ourselves on fires we did not kindle. We all drink from wells we did not dig. - ancient Celtic saying

keda
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Posted 05/06/08 - 11:59 AM:	#16
Of course I have no education regarding this matter, but I am just looking at the ordinary sense of the word, and it pretty much looks like outright doublespeak, not something you find in Critique of Pure Reason, which btw was written more than two centuries ago, and the english translation is not very good either. A right is something you cannot take away from a person, yet the UN treats it like a privilege here. Could you explain why they decided to put in that in Article 29?
_____________________ Free Europe Now The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. -Benjamin Franklin If my sons did not want wars, there would be none - Gutle Rothschild It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes - Josef Stalin Sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace - Bob Dylan A prolonged peace favours the predominance of a mere commercial spirit, and with it a debasing self-interest, cowardice, and effeminacy, and tends to degrade the character of the nation. - Immanuel Kant

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Posted 05/07/08 - 03:44 AM:	#17
Mainly because the exercise of an individual's rights may not conflict with the human rights of others nor should it stand in the way of social progress and standard of life in larger freedom. The latter is, for indivualists who do not accept a concept of positive freedom, meaningless but in light of the social democracies as we have them in Europe it does make sense. Although, admittedly I cannot think of any social progress that requires limitation to human rights that I would still consider good. The former seems self evident although there are obviously situations in which the exercise of different human rights compete with each other. Some people assume a hierarchical structure, other's say all human rights are equal. Since all rights being equal would lead to impossible situations I'm inclined to agree with the hierarchical structures. This creates other problems again, because establishing such a hierarchy is debatable. Of course, theoretically it is possible that all UN members will change the UN Charter to go against the UDHR but they are barred from doing so under article 30. Paragraph 3 of article 29 is therefore mostly theoretical.
_____________________ We all warm ourselves on fires we did not kindle. We all drink from wells we did not dig. - ancient Celtic saying

keda
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Posted 05/07/08 - 04:22 AM:	#18
Benkei wrote: Mainly because the exercise of an individual's rights may not conflict with the human rights of others nor should it stand in the way of social progress and standard of life in larger freedom. I'm not talking about article 30, I'm talking about paragraph 3 in article 29. In any case that makes the document all the more worthless, that right is not used in a sense that they by definition cannot conflict, for obviously if they conflict they not only can but must imply partiality of some form. This is again doublespeak. I suppose they put the "Universal" in "Universal declaration of Human Rights" for psychological reasons, because it sounds much like "Declaration of Universal Human Rights"
_____________________ Free Europe Now The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. -Benjamin Franklin If my sons did not want wars, there would be none - Gutle Rothschild It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes - Josef Stalin Sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace - Bob Dylan A prolonged peace favours the predominance of a mere commercial spirit, and with it a debasing self-interest, cowardice, and effeminacy, and tends to degrade the character of the nation. - Immanuel Kant

Benkei
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Posted 05/07/08 - 04:38 AM:	#19
Universal in the sense that every person is thought to have them, they are not absolute rights (although they are absolute rights in legal terminology, which makes this all a bit confusing. In legal terminology absolute means the right exists vis-a-vis everyone as opposed to, for instance, the right to performance under a contract). Universal rights can easily conflict and do so all the time. And even if they did not conflict it still does not answer what it means to have a specific right in a specific circumstances, we will always need fair trials to (re)define these rights as they relate in specific circumstances. And you cannot talk about article 29 without the context of the entire document including article 30. In fact article 29 explicitly refers to all the rights put down in the document and the principles of the UN so explicitly mentions this context. Even if article 29 paragraph 3 would be useless you cannot conclude that the whole document is useless. If on the basis of mistakes, errors or simple disagreement we have to decide things are useless you would fall in the same category if I would apply that as a standard and vice versa.
_____________________ We all warm ourselves on fires we did not kindle. We all drink from wells we did not dig. - ancient Celtic saying

keda
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Posted 05/09/08 - 09:28 AM:	#20
Benkei wrote: Universal in the sense that every person is thought to have them, they are not absolute rights (although they are absolute rights in legal terminology, which makes this all a bit confusing. It is called an universal declaration, not a declaration of universal rights. In legal terminology absolute means the right exists vis-a-vis everyone as opposed to, for instance, the right to performance under a contract). Universal rights can easily conflict and do so all the time. A right cannot conflict with another. That would imply the absurdity that one has a right to overstep another, that is by definition wrong. The problem is of course that the word "right" has been perverted and people demand "rights" that are not truly rights, simply because they fail the universalizability test. And you cannot talk about article 29 without the context of the entire document including article 30. In fact article 29 explicitly refers to all the rights put down in the document and the principles of the UN so explicitly mentions this context. Of course, it the combination of 29 and the articles before it that makes this double speak so problematic, because it conditions all the so called "rights" mentioned earlier on the interest of UN, and if you happen to miss it, you can get a completely different picture. It is very deceptive. Even if article 29 paragraph 3 would be useless you cannot conclude that the whole document is useless. If on the basis of mistakes, errors or simple disagreement we have to decide things are useless you would fall in the same category if I would apply that as a standard and vice versa. Of course if we strip article 29, it would probably look much better, but we cannot ignore context can we? The definition of "right" in the previous articles is obscurized in article 29. It is a very useful document for use in propaganda of slavery.
_____________________ Free Europe Now The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. -Benjamin Franklin If my sons did not want wars, there would be none - Gutle Rothschild It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes - Josef Stalin Sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace - Bob Dylan A prolonged peace favours the predominance of a mere commercial spirit, and with it a debasing self-interest, cowardice, and effeminacy, and tends to degrade the character of the nation. - Immanuel Kant

Benkei
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Posted 05/09/08 - 02:48 PM:	#21
Rights continuously conflict with each other, if they didn't we didn't need judges and laws to prescribe how conflicting rights should be solved.
_____________________ We all warm ourselves on fires we did not kindle. We all drink from wells we did not dig. - ancient Celtic saying

keda
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Posted 05/09/08 - 03:23 PM:	#22
Benkei wrote: Rights continuously conflict with each other, if they didn't we didn't need judges and laws to prescribe how conflicting rights should be solved. We never did. In a corrupt society, there is a tendency for people to demand so called rights to do wrong.
_____________________ Free Europe Now The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. -Benjamin Franklin If my sons did not want wars, there would be none - Gutle Rothschild It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes - Josef Stalin Sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace - Bob Dylan A prolonged peace favours the predominance of a mere commercial spirit, and with it a debasing self-interest, cowardice, and effeminacy, and tends to degrade the character of the nation. - Immanuel Kant

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Posted 05/09/08 - 07:56 PM:	#23
mikebell wrote: Hi all, I have a quick question: What is the most important document that every human being on the planet should have access to and be able to read and understand? This thread, since I'll childishly assume everyone else will be pouring in their favourite passages and texts; and they'll all be neatly contained within this thread. Reason why I ask this is because I'm disappointed in so many philosophers who are writing on topics that only few people can understand and none of them write for the lay people. The the age of 'people philosophers' or 'popular philosophers' is over which is a shame. Once you answer the question above, I doubt that the answer is a work written by a philosopher, which is disappointing. Philosophy isn't for every single person on the entire planet, we, as in those who study it, will always be mocked. Ever tried talking philosophy to a scientist? Everyone assumes our practice is dead, and unfortunately this is the position philosophy needs to be in to be successful.
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