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What is a lie?

What is a lie?
Reformed Nihilist
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#81 - Quote - Permalink
Posted Jul 27, 2005 - 2:23 PM:

Darcho wrote:
The definition that you underline, in a philosophical context, fails as a definition, because it is too broad; lying is not the only thing that causes a false or misleading impression. What this really means, is that the supposed definition is a statement in disguise; it is stating a fact about lying, but not a fact that pertains only to lying. An illusion causes a false or misleading impression, is an illusion, therefore, a lie? A hallucination causes a false or misleading impression, is a hallucination, therefore, a lie? I think that it would be wrong to say that illusions and hallucinations are types of lies, because if they are to be considered types of lies, then joking, acting-a-role, pretending, fantasizing etc..., must also be types of lies.


Verbs are different from nouns. Illusion: noun, Hallucination: Noun. We were discussing the verb. The noun "lie" is simply the act taken by someone when they are lying (an intentional deciet). Also, I did say that "intentional deceit" was better, but addressed the same issues.
fiveredapples
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#82 - Quote - Permalink
Posted Jul 27, 2005 - 4:37 PM:

Give me a working definition of 'lying' and a working definition of 'bullshit,' similiar in presentation as the definitions I provided. Notice the emphasis on 'working.'

I have given you a working definition, as 'working' is not synonymous with 'precise.'

I don't have THE definition for lying yet; still working on it. But, rest assured, it will contain the following clause: one (the person lying) may or may not believe in the truth-value (either false or true) of what he asserts.

This will obviously cover bullshitting.

miswod
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#83 - Quote - Permalink
Posted Jul 28, 2005 - 2:31 AM:
Subject: What is a lie
My dictionary states that a lie is ‘A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood’.

So in your example, to tell a murderer that his target has gone left when you ‘think’ he has gone right works like this. If the target has gone right then this is clearly a lie and well done to you for you have presented a false statement as being true.

However, if he has gone left (you are incorrect) you have not lied because your statement was not false, you just think you lied. You are not bad because you tried to lie for good intentions, but the target is going to be unlucky because you are not in possession of the facts.

In your example someone who claims that they never lie, so told the murderer the ‘truth’, thinking the target had gone right would have saved the target whilst thinking they had been complicit in a murder.
Darcho
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#84 - Quote - Permalink
Posted Jul 28, 2005 - 3:59 AM:

Reformed Nihilist wrote:

Verbs are different from nouns. Illusion: noun, Hallucination: Noun. We were discussing the verb. The noun "lie" is simply the act taken by someone when they are lying (an intentional deciet). Also, I did say that "intentional deceit" was better, but addressed the same issues.


An act can be a noun? Interesting. I would have thought that nouns only refer to objects: either concrete or abstract. The noun 'lie' is simply an abstract object; a concept, it is not "the act taken by someone who is lying" (that sounds more like a verb). It is like saying, "the noun 'boat' is simply the act taken by someone when they are boating." raised eyebrow

If we want to understand what the abstract object, the concept, of 'lie,' then a verbal definition will not suffice. What is a lie, if one is to act out a lie?

In any case, instead of hallucination:noun, consider hallucinating:verb, or illuding:verb. They would fall under the underlined definition you source. So are hallucinating and illuding types of a lie?

"A lie is intentional deceit." This is a true statement, but it does not tell me what a lie actually is. An example that was brought up before: If a lie is any form of intentional deceit, then the magician/illusionist is a liar. As well, you will be required to expand on your definition: what does it mean to intentionally deceive?




fiveredapples wrote:

I have given you a working definition, as 'working' is not synonymous with 'precise.'


You are right, 'working' is not synonymous with 'precise.' A working definition is required to work as a definition. Your definition did not work, and therefore was not, and is not, a working definition.


I don't have THE definition for lying yet; still working on it. But, rest assured, it will contain the following clause: one (the person lying) may or may not believe in the truth-value (either false or true) of what he asserts.

This will obviously cover bullshitting.


Sure thing, just let me know when you figure out a working definition for 'lie' and 'bullshit.' Also, please make sure that these working definitions are mutually inclusive.
Reformed Nihilist
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#85 - Quote - Permalink
Posted Jul 28, 2005 - 5:21 AM:

Darcho wrote:
In any case, instead of hallucination:noun, consider hallucinating:verb, or illuding:verb. They would fall under the underlined definition you source. So are hallucinating and illuding types of a lie?


Well, when hallucinating one does not (necessarily) attempt to decieve), so obviously not. If one is performing an illusion then one does employ lies, but the act itself is not (generally) a lie, as the performer usually doesn't try to decieve the audience into believing he is doing other than an illursory performance.

"A lie is intentional deceit." This is a true statement, but it does not tell me what a lie actually is. An example that was brought up before: If a lie is any form of intentional deceit, then the magician/illusionist is a liar. As well, you will be required to expand on your definition: what does it mean to intentionally deceive?


An illusionist is a liar in the same way a taxi driver is a door opener. Lying is a necessary part of what they do, but the essence of what they do is something different.

What don't you understand about intentional deceit? I am intentionally decieving you if I am trying to make you believe in a state of affairs that is different from what I believe to be so. If I bullshit, I am trying to make you believe that I know of what I am speaking, when I don't. That's a lie. Unless you would consider it bullshit to say "I don't really have any idea, but...", but this is such a different thing than just asserting something as true (that you have no idea of) without a disclaimer, that I would wonder why we would include it together with the first.

Edited by Reformed Nihilist on Jul 28, 2005 - 6:33 AM
miswod
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#86 - Quote - Permalink
Posted Jul 28, 2005 - 5:56 AM:

[quote=Darcho].

Since this is a philosophy forum, and we are supposedly having a philosophical discussion, a philosophical definition of 'lying' is called for, as well as a philosophical definition of 'bullshit.' Here, "philosophical definition" means a single, conceptual definition, and not a multitude of possibly contradicting definitions.

quote]

If you going to create ‘philosophical definitions’ for lying, won’t you also need to create ‘philosophical definitions’ for false, statement and deliberate etc.? That could be a long job.If you do not accept the dictionary definition of lie why should you accept if for these other words?

Lenin da Mexican
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#87 - Quote - Permalink
Posted Jul 28, 2005 - 9:52 AM:

A lie told often enough becomes the truth.
- V.I. Lenin

This is a hell of a question. First of all for an ultimate answer we must all agree on a single definition of what a "lie" is and that simply will not happen. So we must first strive to reach a high level of accordance for the definition of a "lie". This will be a very difficult and lenghty process. A lie is like the bench press it primarily stresses the pectorals but innately employs the shoulders, biceps, triceps, and abdominal muscles. A lie cannot be isolated we need to accept that and now concentrate on what constitutes a lie.

Is a lie simply a statement or action that appears to be something other than what was intended by the author of it. If so even the truth can be a lie. A lie inevitably carries deception with it. A lie is the same as the "truth" its meaning is dependant upon the interpreter of the action or statement.

Good and bad, right and wrong, truth and lies, these are all things that are dependant on interpretation by each and evey individual.

Again hell of a question I hope this discussion continues...
Lenin da Mexican
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#88 - Quote - Permalink
Posted Jul 28, 2005 - 10:17 AM:

As for bullshit it is a "lies" younger cousin. It is a little easier to define than a lie. Bullshit evades the right and wrong, truth and lies, net it is what people do to pass time when bored. Bullshit are statements that are so ludicrous that they since their inception have no value what so ever either because of the track record of the person they came from or because you feel this statement or action is so "wrong" (i guess it doesnt evade the right/wrong net or the truth/lie net) that it merrits a volatile response "thats fucken bullshit" while the word "fuck" is very interesting it can be caterogized into just about every group of the english language noun, verb, adverb, adjective, etc... Fuck those fucken fucker. smiling face

To be continued...
miswod
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#89 - Quote - Permalink
Posted Jul 28, 2005 - 11:46 AM:

fiveredapples wrote:



Here is the scenario again for all. Please vote whether you think it's a case of lying: Person A has no idea what the winning Lottery numbers were. Person B asks Person A whether the numbers were 3, 4, 12, 34, 2, and 10. Person A responds, "No, those aren't it."

--fiveredapples


If the numbers quoted are the winning numbers it's a lie. If not it's the truth.

Person A was guessing and guessed right. (Guess - To predict (a result or an event) without sufficient information.)

Darcho
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#90 - Quote - Permalink
Posted Jul 28, 2005 - 2:50 PM:

Reformed Nihilist wrote:

What don't you understand about intentional deceit? I am intentionally decieving you if I am trying to make you believe in a state of affairs that is different from what I believe to be so. If I bullshit, I am trying to make you believe that I know of what I am speaking, when I don't. That's a lie. Unless you would consider it bullshit to say "I don't really have any idea, but...", but this is such a different thing than just asserting something as true (that you have no idea of) without a disclaimer, that I would wonder why we would include it together with the first.


So you would have it that all deceiving is really just lying, and since bullshit is a type of deceit, then bullshit is really just a type of lying?
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