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Paul
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Posted 03/15/02 - 06:15 PM:	#1
My opinion: Consciousness is a perspective, which consists of awareness. To be, in the sense of being we know, is to have awareness. We consider the universe to exist in the sense we do because our perspective from within it causes it to seem this way to us, despite it being objectively far different. To be is to have the property of awareness, but there does of course also have to be something there for the awareness to be of, even though the thing is not very understandable according to our way of thinking. Reality is inseprable from perspective of reality. You can't have reality without the perspective nor can you have the perspective without the physical reality. That's why people confuse one for the other... physicalists can't concieve of anything other than the physical simply because their misconception of the physical already includes the perspective.

TruthSeeker
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Posted 04/02/02 - 10:25 PM:	#2
And if you look from outside? Then, what do you have? I think our perspective of the world based in our cultural, philosophical and experiences background creates a Reality, a false Truth that illudes us into confusion. This false Truth that I call Reality holds us in our beliefs and prevents us to find the Truth. Then, how to find the Truth. A Truth is what I call a Collective Essencial Reality. It has to be true for all and has to be essential. Then, where to find us. I guess the Truth is within and around us. But we can't see it because of our background so... If we silence the source of our background, our mind, we get to the Truth. All Eastern Religions and perhaps even all Religions of the world are based on this. Love, Nelson

Paul
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Posted 04/03/02 - 05:32 PM:	#3
Originally posted by TruthSeeker And if you look from outside? Then, what do you have? What do you mean by outside? If you mean outside the universe, that means outside things that exist (by definition), so you'd have nothing and see nothing. (Besides that, there's the physics of how if you somehow ran outside of the rest of the unvierse and turned around to look back at it, you'd have to wait for the universe to catch up with you before you could possibly percieve anything being there... perception requires interaction, so there's nothing there to you until you interact.) If you mean looking from outside the subjective perspective, you again have nothing. Consciousness is the subjective perspective. If you take an objective perspective on the subjective perspective, obviously you see nothing. That's why I'd say there really isn't anything purely subjective or purely objective in nature. Both halves are needed for reality. At least right now, rather than being a foundationalist and talking about a basis of real truth, I'm leaning more towards the Quine-Duhem thesis. I think truth and falsehood boil down to consistency vs. inconsistency, and we can shape any sort of consistent system of truths that we wish to create. If we silence the source of our background, our mind, we get to the Truth. I can't disagree with that, but I guess to me being unconscious is a rather uninteresting experience. What you're really talking about is a lower level of mind, but still involves awareness of mind. Wiping away complex thoughts doesn't mean the mind isn't still there, and that's why there's still experience involved. I would say you can't have awareness (I'm talking about sentience consciousness here, not access consciousness) without something to be aware of, and anything you can be aware of (again, speaking of sentience) would by my definition of "mind" automatically be mind.

Casual
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1 of 1 people found this post helpful Posted 04/03/02 - 10:39 PM:	#4
It seems to me that the argument on consiousness brings up several different arguments. A philosopher (pardon me my forgetting names) once said that he must be the wisest man, because he was the only man that knew he knew nothing. While I hate putting words in other peoples mouths, I take this to mean that a person can be certain of nothing. Reality may or may not exist at all. perhaps we do not exists, but by some trick of whatver forces (natural, psychic, chaos theory- which by the way I most readily accept in most cases) we are given the thought power that makes us think we exist. By that same token, even if such is true, I think therefore I am. Again I'm putting words in other mouths, but if I think I am, regardless of the state I think I'm in, than I am- or may as well be - in that state. Schizophrenics hear voices and see things that no other person sees, not even other schizophrenics, but since they see them, to the schizophrenic those things exist. Whatever you think you are, you are. Even if what you think you are changes, you are still what you think you are. A capitalist commando is captured and tortured mentally into accepting the communist manifesto, the commando eventually breaks down and accepts communism. The movie 'The Matrix' is a beautiful example of precieved reality. The characters were raised in machines, peppered with wire filled holes, and buried in sludge. Because their brains were being stimulated in ways that made the brain think it was in a metropolus, living the life of a 20th century lackey, the people believed they were all yuppie washouts. Later on in the movie, once the main character accepted the fact that the computer world wasn't real, even when he was experiencing it and nothing else, his knowledge that he was in an artificial world prevented that world from overwhelming him. Seems like reality is more a matter of faith to me than anything else, but then again I'm just a fool.

Paradigm
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Posted 07/07/04 - 08:30 AM:	#5
Consciousness is the existence of thought, being alive and aware of your surroundings. If you discover how a thought occurs by understanding the mechanisms of a biological mind then you have also discovered the meaning of consciousness.
A Paradigm not known thoroughly is indescribable, but not beyond description

Fyrius
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Posted 07/12/04 - 10:00 AM:	#6
Originally Posted by Casual ..., but then again I'm just a fool. The only thing on this thread I really disagree with. Your conclusion makes perect sense to me. However, should we not have a clear definition of reality, if there is any, before continuing this discussion? I think that this definition would determine the outcome of it (in other words: I would like to ask you the question that is in my signature).
CAUTION! The contents of this post are based on uncertain premises and therefore not guaranteed to be true. Consult with your mind before accepting.

Kristian Kvam
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Posted 07/12/04 - 01:19 PM:	#7
puff puff It takes a while reading all the s Sorry ehé. descartes: "I think therefor i am" eastern Filosophy: (i like it in French!) "Ne pense pas et tu te trouves toi." Which somwhat means: "I Cease to think therefor i will find to be just myself**." In-out of the Matrix prooved an option to view the world from a voyeur-perspective that we are not capable of, standardly. (read: we are unable to step outside the universe, look at it and say:" oooh see, Professor X. was right, the univers IS shaped like an egg !, among other things we would learn from such a view.) Anyhow, because the Matrix exists, Morpheus can proof worthlessness of our physical senses. Now, in the film there are some like Neo at first, who did not know about the Matrix, yet become suspicious of the world he lives in to be 'unreal'. What sense allowed Neo then to become suspicious at first? To me Plato was right. Our consciousness allows all perceptions, yet the fragile mind is chained by the reality it perceives from the physical senses. FREE YOUR MIND. wether you attempt this by thinking (descartes/West) or not thinking (East), please do your best. hehe My belief: Our mind will someday become so 'free' that we ourselves become 'God'. Greets, Kris.

Phoenix_LFB
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Posted 07/12/04 - 11:50 PM:	#8
I agree with Kris, we will someday become 'Gods' (if you will) in ourselves. Strange as it may seem, it is not out of the question. When we look or see or smell, we expect to see or smell or feel. This expectness is something out of years of experience, not just us, but the whole human mind. To break this expectness is to go somewhere beyond the world we observe now. We are chained to reality because we are human and feel human. But with proper training (No idea here) i think we can break that chain.
Our lives end the day we become silent about things that matter.

Four_Causes
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Posted 07/15/04 - 03:11 PM:	#9
It has been believed by many prominent psychologists that the human consciousness is unique in every human being. There are different segments, or frameworks of human consciousness that govern or are governed by human behavior, perception, and sensory information. Just like everyone has a different and "special" fingerprint, so does it apply to human consciousness. Mysticism has is that consciousness is a part of the mind that is somehow connected through a newtwork that is directly linked to all living things and the universe itself. Different fields of Psychology, have the belief that consciousness governs the normal reality, subconscious reality, and unconscious reality. Normal Reality: Governed by electrical impulses in the brain, sensory information (5 senses), interpretation and perception, actions and reactions, etc Subconscious Reality: Dreams, Regressional Hypnosis, choosing certain things, writing, etc Unconscious Reality: Actions that are done without notice, words that are said without notice, w/o COMPLETE, but some concept of awareness at hand. While Scientists believe that Consciousness is only "brain-created", much like a hologram. The scientific community believes that since the brain is not 100% known, or fully explored, consciousness may be the hidden mystery of the human brain. People, empirically, experience "enlightment" by reaching different levels of consciousness. People claim to have sensational visions through consciousness. They believe that illness, cancer, and negative events can be evaded by visualization of the human consciousness. These cases remain an "X-File", because people ave shown to miraculously "self-heal" by the power of human consciousness. Could it be that "human will" belief governs the consciousness? Possibly so. Could it be that the human nervous system somehow directly linked to people's beliefs about healing themselves, that certain cells can act as defense mechanisms CONSCIOUSLY? The body's central nervous system, the control room for thought and action, includes the spinal cord, which is the link between instructions from the brain and every sense we have. Can humans supress illness and negative events by this? The many beliefs of the concept of consciousness hold that if humans are able to create recognized "thought patterns", such as having positive thoughtss, it can create a more happier and more secure reality. After all, humans create their reality to a certain extent. Consciousness has also become connected to "mind over matter". The system of self contol has been used by the yogis centuries ago, and claim that when they are able to reach "consciousness", they can control pain. Respected doctors and scientists have mentioned before that certain illnesses connected with the heart, brain, muscle groups, and the circulatory system can be controlled, if not cured completely, by BIOFEEDBACK. BIOFEEDBACk is the ability some individuals have to control alpha waves from the mind. Conclusively, I think to acknowledge consciousness, it cannot be dealt with a specialized scientific subject, only in a vague perspective. Consciousness views reality in a different way. The Brain views reality through perception and impulse using sensory information, somehow naturally endowed. The essential human being seems to be harbored in the human CONSCIOUSNESS, or most fundamental unit of the mind. All that which makes up our reality is contained within the human consciousness, governing, and governed by, the instinctive will-empowered conscious self. I believe it is all relative, though. Many people would try to dispute the existence of human consciousness. "I am aware of my own consciousness, so for me consciousness exists" The human problem remains: -WE RELY ON THE LESSER CONSCIOUS MIND RATHER THAN THE POSTCONSCIOUS. It's all about thinking outside the box.
"To love and be loved is to feel the sun on both sides"

Kristian Kvam
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Posted 07/18/04 - 05:46 AM:	#10

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