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True statements

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True statements

Willowz
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Posted 07/09/09 - 12:25 AM:	#421
Banno wrote: (I assume that at over a hundred posts, I am allowed not treat you as a newbie? ) I'm fine with being a newbie. I just hope that numbers don't give authority. Because how can authority be reasoned with? The emphasis is on "that we cannot access". If we all agree that "The Objective is truth", "The Objective is not accessible." and "Everything reasonable seems Subjective.", what next? Edited by Willowz on 07/09/09 - 12:42 AM
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Banno
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Posted 07/09/09 - 01:45 AM:	#422
Hang on. I don't agree with any of those assertions. They are silly. Just had a brilliant curry and still have some wine to finish, so details to follow...
Davidson: We make maximum sense of the words and thoughts of others when we interpret in a way that optimizes agreement. Russel Morris: There's a meaning there, but the meaning there doesn't really mean a thing... Ned: Such is life

Minyun
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Posted 07/09/09 - 03:01 AM:	#423
What is it for a statement to be true? I am proud of myself. I am observant. I am fustrated. I am in love. I am in a panic. These are true statements There is reason Jamaicans use the terminology, I and I when refering to the 'proper' English You and I. When anything that implies a distance, like the word You, will represent an obscure non truth, much like what you see in the sky from Earth is nothing like what you would see if you were actually there. What doesn't have a distance you may ask? I, has no distance. This is as clear as I can make it. This is also a true statement Edited by Minyun on 07/09/09 - 03:08 AM

Fenchurch
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Posted 07/09/09 - 04:48 AM:	#424
Willowz wrote: If we all agree that "The Objective is truth", "The Objective is not accessible." and "Everything reasonable seems Subjective.", what next? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure we don't all agree to that. I would say that the truth is objective, not that the objective is truth. Nor would I say that either is inaccessible, even though it may not always be so (nor is it always clear when it is accessible). As such, I don't think everything reasonable seems (or is) subjective. Minyun wrote: There is reason Jamaicans use the terminology, I and I when referring to the 'proper' English You and I. When anything that implies a distance, like the word You, will represent an obscure non truth, much like what you see in the sky from Earth is nothing like what you would see if you were actually there. What doesn't have a distance you may ask? I, has no distance. "The fundamental delusion of humanity is to suppose that I am here and you are out there." -Yasutani Roshi
...and she, laughing softly, "Why should I lift a shield in contest? If I conquer when naked, how will it be when I take arms?" "Cautious, careful people always casting about to preserve their reputation or social standards never can bring about reform. Those who are really in earnest are willing to be anything or nothing in the world's estimation, and publicly and privately, in season and out, avow their sympathies with despised ideas and their advocates, and bear the consequences." -Susan B. Anthony

Cheshire
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Posted 07/09/09 - 05:05 AM:	#425
"The earth is flat" At one time this was a fact.
Or not.

Fenchurch
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Posted 07/09/09 - 05:14 AM:	#426
Cheshire wrote: "The earth is flat" At one time this was a fact. No, it wasn't. It was believed to be a fact and asserted as if it were a fact. That's the important difference you are failing to grasp. A fact is a state of affairs. A truth is a statement that accurately describes (and thus corresponds to) that state of affairs. Never was it an actual state of affairs that the world was flat. Therefore, never was it true that the earth was flat. People thought the earth was flat, and felt justified enough to call it knowledge/truth/fact. But they were wrong. People make mistakes, you see.
...and she, laughing softly, "Why should I lift a shield in contest? If I conquer when naked, how will it be when I take arms?" "Cautious, careful people always casting about to preserve their reputation or social standards never can bring about reform. Those who are really in earnest are willing to be anything or nothing in the world's estimation, and publicly and privately, in season and out, avow their sympathies with despised ideas and their advocates, and bear the consequences." -Susan B. Anthony

worldlogicleague
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Posted 07/09/09 - 05:58 AM:

#427

oag wrote:
All we ever have to work with are human observations. The stuff that we agree on is only true because we say so. It is true because we agree that it is.

The Truth of Euclid's Proposition

from What the Tortoise said to Achilles (Carroll) --

Tortoise: "Well, now, let's take a little bit of Euclid's argument in that First Proposition—just two steps, and the conclusion drawn from them.... let's call them A, B, and Z:—

(*premise 1*) (A) Things that are equal to the same are equal to each other.

(*premise 2*) (B) The two sides of this Triangle are things that are equal to the same.

(*conclusion*) (Z) The two sides of this Triangle are equal to each other."

To be true or not to be true, that is the question ...

Is Z true simply and solely because we have agreed that it is true?

Is Z true for some, solely because they have agreed to a certain mystical (unprovable) rule, C, that says: IF A and B THEN Z? And without this rule, no truth can be determined?

Is Z true for no other reason then because of the stated relationships of the sets, as stated in A and B? And nothing else required, given A and B are true.

Edited by worldlogicleague on 07/09/09 - 06:05 AM

Willowz
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Posted 07/09/09 - 08:41 AM:	#428
Banno wrote: That's just confusing beliefs and truths. As long as we don't have the absolute knowledge of what is true and false, such statements don't hold much water. == Banno wrote: Hang on. I don't agree with any of those assertions. They are silly. Fenchurch wrote: I don't know, but I'm pretty sure we don't all agree to that. ...and unfortunately I don't know. Tell me what should we agree upon? Can we lay out some fundaments to build upon? The last 42 pages sound to be about this question. Fenchurch wrote: ...they were wrong. People make mistakes, you see. ...and they will make those mistakes as long as they don't know what is truly, true. I already read post 407 then 410, since my post doesn't much differ. Language might be that medium/agent too The Objective. So what? It's still the individual speaking his subjective thoughts. Then again I think about scientists. They should be regarded as The Objective seekers.
This song will prepare you for a good smile.

Willowz
Wilson wants a smile.

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Posted 07/09/09 - 09:07 AM:	#429
Would this be correct? False beliefs arise out of logical fallacies. Logical fallacies arise from a limited amount of knowledge. Therefore if somebody knows that he has boundaries, he has more knowledge and is less likely to make such logical fallacies. By knowing that someone doesn't really know everything he has the opportunity to know more about a truth. Through my limited amount of knowledge I must reason through logic, in order to know what is right and what is wrong, at the same time believing in what I do. Edited by Willowz on 07/09/09 - 09:19 AM
This song will prepare you for a good smile.

oag
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Posted 07/09/09 - 11:07 AM:	#430
Fenchurch wrote: No, it wasn't. It was believed to be a fact and asserted as if it were a fact. That's the important difference you are failing to grasp. A fact is a state of affairs. A truth is a statement that accurately describes (and thus corresponds to) that state of affairs. Never was it an actual state of affairs that the world was flat. Therefore, never was it true that the earth was flat. People thought the earth was flat, and felt justified enough to call it knowledge/truth/fact. But they were wrong. People make mistakes, you see. This is where you get hoist by your own petard though. You are saying that it was never a fact that the Earth was flat but it was believed to be a fact. You are now suggesting that we now know the state of affairs of everything that we call a fact when everything that we now call a fact is STILL believed to be a fact. We don't have the means to tell what every "state of affairs" actually is. We only have the means to describe and define it according to how we currently see it. If we had a handle on every "state of affairs" or objective truth then we could close up the labs and send the scientists home. The reason that doesn't happen is because they will never know THE truth. They will only know a truth and then another and another. Each one will be a fact until it is superseded by another fact. Time and again people want to declare that a fact is an objective, immutable truth. If that were the case then we would never have to discard one fact and replace it with a new, improved one. You want to suggest that humans have objective knowledge of things but we don't...ever.

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