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True statements

Banno
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Posted 04/24/09 - 05:11 PM:	#301
Of course, there are also some decent reasons for accepting coherence as a reason for accepting a belief...
Davidson: We make maximum sense of the words and thoughts of others when we interpret in a way that optimizes agreement. Russel Morris: There's a meaning there, but the meaning there doesn't really mean a thing... Ned: Such is life

ragus
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Posted 04/25/09 - 03:47 AM:	#302
Banno wrote Ragus, isn't a statement true regardless of whether or not it's truth has been confirmed? How would you know? Perhaps he wishes to advocate some form of idealism, in which only known truths are really true Idealism!? . . . . and that use of "really" . . . are you proposing ABSOLUTE truth? If it isn't known (I'm assuming that knowing implies a knower) that a statement is true (or false) then we on what basis can we insist that nevertheless it is true (or false)?
"A word in your ear is like an untethered goat in a field" Wittigenstein

ragus
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Posted 04/25/09 - 04:21 AM:	#303
Banno wrote Not only do I believe I have a pain in my foot, but it is also true that I have such a pain.Yet it is nonsense to ask for a justification for my belief, or for my stating that it is true. It follows that despite having a true belief, I do not know that I have that pain. Nonsense for who? Your justification is your foot hurts. You are aware that it hurts. I have no access to your hurt-feeling (here be beetles in boxes). I check to see whether there is any other justification for your belief. Yes, there is. You have a large bruise on your foot. I say to you "lay of the foot. It looks painful.". You say "toast and Vegemite will ease the pain." I shake my head sadly. Later I find that recent research reveals that certain yeast extracts can dull the experience of pain. "WOW!" I think "Banno knew that but he didn't know he had a pain. He's some dude."
"A word in your ear is like an untethered goat in a field" Wittigenstein

Banno
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Posted 04/25/09 - 04:26 AM:	#304
ragus wrote: How would you know? You seem to have missed the question. Isn't a statement true or false regardless of whether we know it to be true or false? Our knowing or not know does not make it the case, does it? There are true things of which we do not know, I think - do you disagree? It's raining outside, and it is night time. I haven't been outside, so I don't know if the chooks have roosted in their coop, or not. By either they have or they haven't. The statement "the chooks have roosted" is either true or not; and it is true or not regardless of whether anyone knows which is the case. Of course, presumably the chickens know. Would that be sufficient?
Davidson: We make maximum sense of the words and thoughts of others when we interpret in a way that optimizes agreement. Russel Morris: There's a meaning there, but the meaning there doesn't really mean a thing... Ned: Such is life

Banno
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Posted 04/25/09 - 04:31 AM:	#305
The medicinal benefits of vegi toast are legend. ragus wrote: Your justification is your foot hurts. So the justification for my knowing that my foot is in pain is that my foot is in pain. No, can't see how that helps...
Davidson: We make maximum sense of the words and thoughts of others when we interpret in a way that optimizes agreement. Russel Morris: There's a meaning there, but the meaning there doesn't really mean a thing... Ned: Such is life

ragus
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Posted 04/25/09 - 04:35 AM:	#306
sensabile wrote What does "confirmation of the truth of the statement" entail? In my example it might meant that "B" now says "the cat is on the mat". To get to this point he went and looked for himself. I want to be more careful of saying things like "verifying" or "confirming" truth. Is that really what is happening? It's not so obvious. We are "verifying" or "confirming" the truth of statements not truth. Do you simply mean that they agreed? Yes. I don't want to reduce truth to agreement even here because that sounds far too much like a theory to me. The interesting issue is why B agrees with the statement. It's not a theory. It's a way of comparison. If it fulfils a purpose then it can be used. Why does B agree with A? Because they both sense and talk about IT in the same way.
"A word in your ear is like an untethered goat in a field" Wittigenstein

Banno
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Posted 04/25/09 - 05:24 AM:	#307
Someone is going to bring up Heisenberg's cat any second now...
Davidson: We make maximum sense of the words and thoughts of others when we interpret in a way that optimizes agreement. Russel Morris: There's a meaning there, but the meaning there doesn't really mean a thing... Ned: Such is life

ragus
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Posted 04/25/09 - 11:18 AM:	#308
Banno wrote You seem to have missed the question. Isn't a statement true or false regardless of whether we know it to be true or false? My focus has been on the outcome of the statement - when and how we check and what we find. Your focus (I think) is on the type of statement. It's a question about definition (or maybe construction). If we know there's an either/or situation then we can produce a statement that makes a claim one way or the other. That would be a true/false statement - it's a relationship between our knowledge of the world and our use of language. So we might think, if it's the case that there either is or is not snow on Everest then the statement "there either is or is not snow on Everest" is a true/false statement. Heisenberg's cat? How sure are you about this? Maybe you were imagining Schrodinger's chicken.
"A word in your ear is like an untethered goat in a field" Wittigenstein

J. Random Hacker
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Posted 04/25/09 - 11:24 AM:	#309
ragus wrote: Would the feeling exist for you? Sure, dreams exist for me, fever-induced hallucinations exist for me, LSD drug trips exist for me and so on. If you think pain is as real as those things then we have no disagreement.

ragus
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Posted 04/25/09 - 11:37 AM:	#310
Banno wrote So the justification for my knowing that my foot is in pain is that my foot is in pain. No, can't see how that helps... You claim not to know that your foot is in pain and yet you can say that it's your foot that hurts? Do we have a problem with know?
"A word in your ear is like an untethered goat in a field" Wittigenstein

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