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Theory of an Immutable Future
A scientific explanation of why the future is pre-written and cannot be changed.

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Theory of an Immutable Future

Clive
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Posted 07/01/07 - 03:22 AM: Subject: Theory of an Immutable Future	#1
Philosophers and theologans have for a long time argued with each other and among themselves whether the future can be known and whether it can be changed. I put forward a scientific explantion why the future is pre-written and cannot be changed. I will be happy to hear anyone that can find a flaw in it. All matter consists of particles. These particles are bonded to form atoms molecules and eventually objects. All particles, at any given time, have a certain velocity and direction. This velocity and direction is only affected by the kinectic energy of the particle, its bonds and by other particles in it's vicinity. That means that although particles may appear to display random movement, the movement is actually predictable. All other forces that may affect the movement of the particles also eminates from particles - magnetic, gravitational, thermal etc. You can think of it as a snooker game. Given knowledge of where the white ball will hit the colored ball and at what speed, we can know exactly where the balls will end up and when. Just as, given enough information about the current state of the weather we can predict what the weather will be several days time, given a powerful enough computer we could predict the state of any matter at any time in the future. Since all matter interacts in some way with other matter a perfect prediction of its future state would require taking into account all particles in the universe. The human brain also consists of particles, so all our actions and thoughts are also predictable. If something is predictable then it follows that it cannot be changed. If you are not convinced by that statement then think of it a little differently. ALL particle movement is predictable, so there is no way that there can exist some non-predictable particles that will change the course of the predictable ones. This means that what will happen in the future will happen, and nothing can change it. I know this is a daunting prospect, so please prove me wrong.

perseus
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Posted 07/01/07 - 05:07 AM:	#2
Clive wrote: ALL particle movement is predictable, so there is no way that there can exist some non-predictable particles that will change the course of the predictable ones. Your theory is based on outdated Newtonian mechanics. According to quantum mechanics, possibly the most powerful and reliable tool in our scientific arsenal, nature is inherently unpredictable at a microscopic level. Consider a radioactive atom for example, there is no way we can know for certain when the next particle will be emitted or why it is emitted at that point in time. To steal a phrase from Einstein, it is as if God plays dice. Since these small effects can be magnified to a macroscopic level this means (barring some hidden variables theory or something similar) that nature is entirely unpredictable, although the probability of something happening can in theory be calculated precisely. Quantum effects can literally determine the result of a dice roll, therefore since you brain is made of particles, then this must also be unpredictable and non-deterministic based on our present understanding of physics. Edited by perseus on 07/01/07 - 05:22 AM
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. George Bernard Shaw

PeeGee
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Posted 07/17/07 - 06:45 AM:	#3
If you presume that all matter follows newtonian physics, then you would have a good argument on your hands. A similar argument I would make (following the same assumption) is that if one were to go back in the dawn of creation and watch the Big Bang again, everything should resolve the way it did, down to our very decisions. However as stated above, quantum mechanics and other similar concepts create a degree of chaos / entropy, thus making the future not immutable. I will however grant that trying to wrap one's mind around such a concept hurts. At least it does for me.
The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.

ying
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Posted 07/17/07 - 03:16 PM:	#4
Even more, since biological matter also is another extra 'physical' level, and because levels of higher complexity have arrising properties in relation to lower levels (An atom has more properties than just the nuclei and pointparticles, an nucleus is more than just three quarks etc), and because consciousness arrises out of brainmatter and acts as a causal agent, behaviour can't be fully predicted through reduction.
*"I determined nothing."* -Sceptical expression

Cadrache
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Posted 07/17/07 - 05:18 PM:	#5
The quantum mechanics probability aspect makes the assumption that one particle is the same as another particle. Ie. one electron is the same as another electron. Mathmatical example. If electron = 6, and electron is made up of supposedly values x,y,z (no, I don't know if it's multipled subtracted, or even if they have subvalues similar to this description.) xyz = 6 This, as it is,leaves an infinate variety of possible values for the same value 6. Add 1/4,1/16th values for the 'spin' of just a single value, and you can drop inifinity down a little bit and thus can define a certain predicability. (energy values that are allowed to interact each other at this level? I have no idea. ie. 2 hz can 'only' interact with 3hz at values like 6 hz, for example, as well, which 'dimensions' can interact with the other.) I agree that it is probably not definable indefinately; you will eventually reach a point of unpredicability. runs away and tries not to post for 2 whole days

Gramm
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Posted 07/25/07 - 12:12 AM:	#6
Perseus, Re Quantum Mechanics. You are right. But one doesn't even have to resort to Quantum Mechanics to dispute Clive's Notion. A simple understanding of Brownian motion, (which is as random as it is perfectly observable) cuts the ground from under his theory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownian_motion Randomness of any sort undermines predictability. Gramm
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perseus
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Posted 07/25/07 - 12:17 AM:	#7
Gramm wrote: But one doesn't even have to resort to Quantum Mechanics to dispute Clive's Notion. A simple understanding of Brownian motion, (which is as random as it is perfectly observable) cuts the ground from under his theory.... Randomness of any sort undermines predictability. Gramm Gramm, I am not sure why you say this, these effects are only unpredictable because we don't have the resources, computing power and precise information to calculate the results, like chaotic systems for example.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. George Bernard Shaw

Gramm
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Posted 07/25/07 - 01:03 AM:	#8
perseus wrote: Gramm, I am not sure why you say this, these effects are only unpredictable because we don't have the resources, computing power and precise information to calculate the results, like chaotic systems for example. Perseus, With the exception of mathematical forms, Chaotic systems in real life, are not predictable, what is predictable is the point at which they go from ordered to chaotic. I seriously doubt that any amount of computing power will ever change that. Brownian Motion is unpredictable in a Classic (Thermodynamic ) manner as opposed to QM. That said, it is theoretically possible that you might be able to predict (for example) the movement of random gas molecules in a confined space. Such a possibility exists, but the probability of you correctly predicting such random motion, is so infinitesimally small, that it reaches virtual zero. Gramm
Light is not diminished by being shared. Desiderata

perseus
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Posted 07/25/07 - 08:37 AM:	#9
Gramm, I think the original poster was only considering if it was logically (loosely theoretically) possible to predict the future. If so the universe is completely deterministic and it then follows that it is impossible to change the future. The fact that we would quickly run out of computing power to predict a chaotic systems actual state is irrelevant, since in principle it is possible. QM is the only physical contender that refutes this predictibility aspect assuming no hidden variables or similar theory is ever discovered. However, whether physical rules apply to mind is highly debatable anyway.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. George Bernard Shaw

Gramm
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Posted 07/25/07 - 11:17 PM:	#10
perseus wrote: QM is the only physical contender that refutes this predictibility aspect assuming no hidden variables or similar theory is ever discovered. You know, there is one scientist who would seriously question this position....and we all know who. Tiny cryptic clue...below... GRaMMe.
Light is not diminished by being shared. Desiderata

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