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The Two envelope Paradox
O so simple...

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The Two envelope Paradox
Death Monkey
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Posted 07/18/08 - 12:54 AM:
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#41
LauLuna,

Once we establish that the coin is fair, we do know that none of the other factors will bias it one way or the other.

What about the wind? What about the force the hand exerts on the coin in tossing it? What about the shape of the floor and its irregularities? How can we know all these factors will add up precisely in the way required to compensate over time any partial slant coming from any of them?

Pretty simple, actually. By testing the coin.

Of course, from a physics point of view, we can check its geometry and mass distribution. For any of the factors you mention to produce a bias, there would need to be a significant asymetry.

Is no physical theory required to sustain such a belief?

Of course a physical theory is required. After all, it is a belief about the physical behavior of a physical object. That is exactly my point. If we have good physical reasons to to believe the coin is not going to be biased, we call it a "fair coin", and are justified in assuming equal probabilities. If we do not, then we don't call it a fair coin, and do not assume equal probabilities.

Of course the fairness of the coin decisively matters but how can it be enough to exclude any other possible bias?

I don't understand your question. The "fairness" of the coin is not some independant property it has. The coin is defined to be "fair" if and only if there are no biases. That is what "fair coin" means.


DM

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Kwalish Kid
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Posted 07/18/08 - 01:09 AM:
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#42
DoctorInWaiting wrote:
This is a variation of the Monty Hall Problem. Probability wise without any information (like the monty hall problem instigated) it is a 50% chance. There is no real way of instigating which is the right envelope I feel.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean, but in the standard Monty Hall offer, he provides new information that does change to balance of subjective probabilities.

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unenlightened
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Posted 07/18/08 - 08:06 AM:
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#43
I think Lauluna is onto something. In the case where ( I know) there are 2 pairs of evelopes, $50 & $100, and $100 & $200, then the swap would be justified in the case where I open my envelope and find $100. There is all sorts of 'extra information' that I have compared to the original problem. I know that I haven't got either the lowest of the low pair, or the highest of the high pair, and if I did have either of those - $50 or $200, then there would be no question what to do.

I think this is the (mis)calculation that suggests in the original problem that it is worth swapping.

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cckcckcc
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Posted 07/18/08 - 10:03 AM:
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#44
I have heard a similar situation to this, but it is not the same. I do think, however it will lend something to why this phenomenon occurs, and I apologize if it is too off topic. It is called the Monty Hall Paradox

Say there are 3 envelopes, two contain X dollars and one contains 2X dollars. You pick one envelope. You then get to choose whether you keep that envelope or choose another envelope. Your original chance of picking the evelope that contains 2X dollars is 33%, but after you make your initial choice, one of the envelopes is opened to display its amount is not 2X dollars. Then given the choice to switch, you increase your chances to selecting the envelope with 2X dollars to 2/3. It might first appear that the probability is 1/2, but doing that ignores that your first 1/3 choice influenced which door would in fact be opened.

The scenario you have proposed is similar. If you look at the overall amount of of money you can earn as a rate money/probability then the value proposed is different than if you were to use the situational rate of money/probability.

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LauLuna
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Posted 07/19/08 - 05:07 AM:
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#45
Death Monkey wrote:


I don't understand your question. The "fairness" of the coin is not some independant property it has. The coin is defined to be "fair" if and only if there are no biases. That is what "fair coin" means.

DM


I really think you don't get my point. My fault surely. Let me try again.

The fairness of the coin refers only to the coin's physical construction. But there can be other biases. Suppose the one who flips the coin has a special way to do it that favors heads, which may happen even if all involved agents are completely unaware of the fact. Imagine that the interaction of the specific way in which the coin is tossed once and once again with the wind direction is what favor heads, all agents being unaware thereof. Imagine...

Why are we entitled to believe that a fairly constructed coin will not encounter systematic bias arising from the environment? On what grounds are we to expect that heads will tend to come up 50% of times?

Is this not plainly a case of application of the principle of indifference justified by the absence of further information? Or have we any physical theory that entitles us to believe that the sum of all environmental factors will tend to favor equal distribution of chances?

So, again: what is the ultimate difference between the case of the coin and the case of the envelopes?

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LauLuna
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Posted 07/19/08 - 05:56 AM:
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#46
cckcckcc wrote:
Say there are 3 envelopes, two contain X dollars and one contains 2X dollars. You pick one envelope. You then get to choose whether you keep that envelope or choose another envelope. Your original chance of picking the evelope that contains 2X dollars is 33%, but after you make your initial choice, one of the envelopes is opened to display its amount is not 2X dollars. Then given the choice to switch, you increase your chances to selecting the envelope with 2X dollars to 2/3. It might first appear that the probability is 1/2, but doing that ignores that your first 1/3 choice influenced which door would in fact be opened.


This is not exactly the Monty Hall paradox. For your chances to improve when switching it is required that:

1. the envelope you opened does not contain 2X (this was implicit, I presume)
2. more importantly: the one who opened the second envelope KNEW where the 2X were and CHOSE the other envelope.

It is the information used by the one who opens the second envelope that changes the probability from 1/3 to 2/3. And this is what makes this case different from the two envelope paradox.

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Death Monkey
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Posted 07/20/08 - 12:48 AM:
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#47
LauLuna

The fairness of the coin refers only to the coin's physical construction. But there can be other biases. Suppose the one who flips the coin has a special way to do it that favors heads, which may happen even if all involved agents are completely unaware of the fact. Imagine that the interaction of the specific way in which the coin is tossed once and once again with the wind direction is what favor heads, all agents being unaware thereof. Imagine...

If any of these "what-ifs" were considered to be significantly likely to happen, we would not assume equal probabilities for heads and tails anymore. Again, we do not just simply assume that no bias is possible. That assessment is based on experience and evidence. Coin-flipping has become a common way of making random choices because it has been found to be the case that when the coin itself is not biased, the resulting flips are 50/50.

Also, if the coin is geometrically symmetric, there is no possible way that bias can occur without one of the participants being involved, either knowingly, or by not flipping properly. For example, everybody knows that you cannot simply drop the coin.

Why are we entitled to believe that a fairly constructed coin will not encounter systematic bias arising from the environment? On what grounds are we to expect that heads will tend to come up 50% of times?

Again, both experience and physics.

Is this not plainly a case of application of the principle of indifference justified by the absence of further information? Or have we any physical theory that entitles us to believe that the sum of all environmental factors will tend to favor equal distribution of chances?

The latter. Again, it is easy to see when you consider the issue of symmetry. Physical factors cannot conspire to bias the results if there is no significant physical difference between the two sides.

Also, like I said before, one need not (and usually will not), rely just on theory. If you really are worried that the coin might be biased, you test it. And if you really believe that a person could deliberately force a bias by the way he flips it, then obviously you would not assume that the flips are going to be equally distributed then.

So even then, it's not based on lack of information, but on the positive belief that a person cannot influence the result of the flip without obviously flipping it improperly. If one did not already hold this belief, they would no more assume that the flip is going to be random than they would if they were just letting the person choose the result.


DM

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LauLuna
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Posted 07/20/08 - 05:55 AM:
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#48
Death Monkey wrote:

Also, if the coin is geometrically symmetric, there is no possible way that bias can occur without one of the participants being involved, either knowingly, or by not flipping properly. For example, everybody knows that you cannot simply drop the coin.


Not so. The bias can come from natural events in the environement.


Death Monkey wrote:
Again, it is easy to see when you consider the issue of symmetry. Physical factors cannot conspire to bias the results if there is no significant physical difference between the two sides.


But they could yield 100% heads by virtue of the chain of physical causes that leads to the result. I know we usually overlook this but the question is on what grounds are we justified to do so. Experience is no good candidate for mathematical justification in computing probabilities.

Let me show you how the two envelope paradox is no different from the coin toss case by presenting a strengthened version of the paradox. We could call it 'the strengthened Kraitchik paradox' (from Maurice Kraitchik, the French mathematician who proposed the original paradox for the first time). The following is a physically impossible idealized case but such cases are admissible in mathematical reasoning.

A person P makes, say, one billion choices between envelopes A and B in each pair, and gets $10 in, say, 10 occasions. P opens all chosen envelopes and sees what lies in them. Now P is informed that the choice between all possible distributions has been made by tossing a fair coin (an infinite number of times; this is an idealized thought experiment).

Then P is allowed to switch the envelopes in those cases in which the chosen envelope contains $10.

P reasons this way: if I never switch, I’ll get $10·10 = $100 from the envelopes with $10. But if I always switch, the probabilities are that I will get $20 half the times (which already amounts to $100) and $5 the other half (which sums up to %25); in total %125 instead of the $100 that I would get if I always kept the chosen envelope.

The problem is that P could have reasoned similarly if he had chosen the other envelopes in those ten cases. So the paradox arises again. But now the distribution of money into the envelopes depends on the toss of a fair coin.




Edited by LauLuna on 07/20/08 - 06:38 AM. Reason: need to render it more understandable
Death Monkey
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Posted 07/22/08 - 04:39 AM:
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#49
LauLuna,

Also, if the coin is geometrically symmetric, there is no possible way that bias can occur without one of the participants being involved, either knowingly, or by not flipping properly. For example, everybody knows that you cannot simply drop the coin.

Not so. The bias can come from natural events in the environement.

How do you figure? Any natural event in the environment would have to couple to the coin differently depending on its position/orientation, in order to introduce a bias towards heads or tails. That requires some asymmetry in the coin.

Again, it is easy to see when you consider the issue of symmetry. Physical factors cannot conspire to bias the results if there is no significant physical difference between the two sides.

But they could yield 100% heads by virtue of the chain of physical causes that leads to the result. I know we usually overlook this but the question is on what grounds are we justified to do so. Experience is no good candidate for mathematical justification in computing probabilities.

On the contrary, it is pretty much the only justification we can have. After all, the mathematical equations we use to compute probabilities are just models. The applicability of a particular model is based on observation.

If you don't think that testing the coin tells you anything about the odds of it coming up heads or tails in future flips, then I really don't know what to say, besides "you're wrong".

Let me show you how the two envelope paradox is no different from the coin toss case by presenting a strengthened version of the paradox. We could call it 'the strengthened Kraitchik paradox' (from Maurice Kraitchik, the French mathematician who proposed the original paradox for the first time). The following is a physically impossible idealized case but such cases are admissible in mathematical reasoning.

A person P makes, say, one billion choices between envelopes A and B in each pair, and gets $10 in, say, 10 occasions. P opens all chosen envelopes and sees what lies in them. Now P is informed that the choice between all possible distributions has been made by tossing a fair coin (an infinite number of times; this is an idealized thought experiment).

This is, of course, nonsense, since there is no distribution of all possible distributions. To constrain the thought experiment so that there is a distribution of possible distributions of monetary values, provides you with exactly the distribution of possible monetary values that you need to be able to decide, based on what you saw in the first envelope, whether or not to switch.

Also note that in such a scenario, whatever that presupposed distribution of possible monetary distributions is, it will definitely not be one such that, for any value seen in the first envelope, there will be a 50/50 conditional probability of it being the smaller of the two envelopes.

Then P is allowed to switch the envelopes in those cases in which the chosen envelope contains $10.

P reasons this way: if I never switch, I’ll get $10·10 = $100 from the envelopes with $10. But if I always switch, the probabilities are that I will get $20 half the times (which already amounts to $100) and $5 the other half (which sums up to %25); in total %125 instead of the $100 that I would get if I always kept the chosen envelope.

The problem is that P could have reasoned similarly if he had chosen the other envelopes in those ten cases. So the paradox arises again. But now the distribution of money into the envelopes depends on the toss of a fair coin.

As I pointed out, the flaw here is that if you do construct the experiment as you suggest, whereby some set of possible distributions is constructed, and then for each trial you use coin-flipping to choose one distribution for that trial, then it will absolutely not be the case that conditional probability of having opened the smaller of the two envelopes does not depend on the value of that envelope. No matter what the overal distribution of possible distributions you allow for the experiment is, there will be a resulting probability distribution for combinations of values in the envelopes, and that distribution will necessarily be one for which it is not always 50/50 for all observed values of the first envelope to be the smaller of the two values.

Let me illustrate. Let's constrain the set of distributions as follows. We will consider all cases where the value of the smaller envelope ranges from $1 to $X, in $1 increments, with equal probabilities for all values. Now for each value of X, we have a possible distribution. We then use coin-flipping, as you suggested, to choose the value of X for a particular trial. We now need a distribution of X. Let's say that we set up our coin-flipping decision such that X is uniformly distribution from $10 to $10000, in $1 increments.

This gives us a conditional probability distribution for whether the first envelope is the larger or smaller, that clearly does depend on the value seen. For example, in the case cited above, since $10 is pretty low in the overal range, it is more likely to be the smaller value. But if you saw something like $9000, it would be less likely. And for any value over $10000, you could be 100% sure that it is the larger envelope.

And as I said above, if you do not constrain the set of possible distributions, then the whole idea is nonsense. There is no distribution of possible distributions for you to then choose from, using coin-flipping or otherwise. It would be like suggesting a thought experiment where you uniformly select a real number from positive to negative infinity by performing coin-flips. You just can't do it, theoretically or otherwise.


DM

Pseudoscience makes Baby Jesus cry.
Kurt_Godel
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Posted 07/22/08 - 10:03 AM:
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#50
Kwalish Kid wrote:

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean, but in the standard Monty Hall offer, he provides new information that does change to balance of subjective probabilities.


Agreed. This problem seems similar to Monty Hall but is very different in that there is no variable change owing to additional information.

Given that the original paradox's cadaver has been beaten to a pulp, here's a fresh little brain tease for you all.

Its football night. You're with 2 buddies, and you decide to order pizza. One phone call to Domino's, and your pizza/wings/soda is on its way. Total bill $25. You have a 10, and your buddies hand you a 10 each, giving you $30 in your pocket. Delivery boy shows up with your grub. Then you figure, since you can't split the bill evenly among 3, and since you wanna leave a tip, you hand the delivery boy $30 and ask for $3 back. With $27 in hand, he gets a $2 tip and leaves happy. Of the $3 change, you pocket $1, and return $1 to each of your buddies. So each of you paid $10, and got $1 back, so you really paid $9...times 3 = $27, plus the delivery boy's $2 tip = $29. Where did the last $ go??
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