The Socrates question: Philosophy Forums

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The Socrates question

darsunt
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Posted 07/16/04 - 07:39 AM:	#1
Most people who have dabbled even a little in philosophy know the story of Socrates, the Greek philosopher who was one of the most active minds in history. During bad political times he was forced to drink the hemlock (commit suicide) by an Athenian court. His disciples came to the conclusion that societies not only destroy their worst men, they also destroy their best. Is this an inevitable characteristic of societies?

rabeldin
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Posted 07/16/04 - 08:20 AM:	#2
The masses are jealous and blind, but it is unnecessary to kill wise men, just ignore them.
Leave no assumption unquestioned.

Tripp2K3
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Posted 07/16/04 - 08:33 AM:	#3
Societies destroy those that do not comply with the norms. To be a member of a society is to conform to those extectations and not question it since society is in essance a balance that brings stability and questioning the basics of society is to be unstable, or so my opinion goes. So in short yes in order for society to function there must be the masses and only a few bright men, how many greatly misunderstood children have been blunted by education of men that have been destroyed by their job beceause they have missed an opportunity.
"Joyous distrust is a sign of health. Everything absolute belongs to pathology." Frederich Nietzsche

WildOrchid

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Posted 07/16/04 - 08:43 AM:	#4
The masses do not truly control society. It is the few of power and wealth that control the masses. Therefore, if someone comes along and has enormous influence over the masses and this threatens those of power, those in power do what it takes to retain their power. It is greed that destroys societies greatest minds.

Tripp2K3
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Posted 07/16/04 - 09:13 AM:	#5
WildOrchid, I agree with that. But then I suppose greed is needed if we are to attain more than we have... But then didn't Plato himself say that we need a ruling class to steer the masses.
"Joyous distrust is a sign of health. Everything absolute belongs to pathology." Frederich Nietzsche

WildOrchid

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Posted 07/16/04 - 09:23 AM:	#6
It seems that the majority of humans do need this direction and without it there would be chaos. Perhaps though someday society will learn to find balance (greed in moderation maybe). It is greed and selfishness that cause nearly all of humanities problems. Also, if the masses are inclined to follow the direction of the rulers, wouldn't they be changed by thier good example? Actually, I change my mind - I do not believe greed is necessary as greed is based on raw selfishness. I think instead if people focused on a drive to achieve (for the good of themselves and others) we may be able to attain an enlightened state and improve the living conditions for those worldwide.

Tripp2K3
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Posted 07/16/04 - 09:36 AM:	#7
That would be a world really worth living in, yet at the moment apart from peak oil hitting us in the face I don't think man is really going to have a good look at themselves. All of the educated people are in the better off countries nad really don't care about anyone else apart from themselves. Besides the entire point of capitalism is greed, a sad thing really.
"Joyous distrust is a sign of health. Everything absolute belongs to pathology." Frederich Nietzsche

darsunt
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Posted 07/16/04 - 03:29 PM:	#8
So society is a two edged sword then? Its benefits come at a high price. It isolates us (protects us) from the worst of people. But it also isolates us from the best of people. I suppose this is why societies tend to focus on such issues as crime and war. The politicians are trying to emphasis the good society does (fight bad men) and ignore the bad it does (oppress creativity, goodness, genius, ect)

wuliheron
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Posted 07/16/04 - 06:07 PM:	#9
darsunt wrote: Most people who have dabbled even a little in philosophy know the story of Socrates, the Greek philosopher who was one of the most active minds in history. During bad political times he was forced to drink the hemlock (commit suicide) by an Athenian court. His disciples came to the conclusion that societies not only destroy their worst men, they also destroy their best. Is this an inevitable characteristic of societies? Socrates refused to leave the country, he drank the hemlock without so much as someone standing by urging him on. The idea that Society killed him is a contradiction of his own belief in free will. However, you could argue that he chose to kill himself because his society did not live up to his standards. By all accounts he was a sarchastic curmudgeon who loved nothing more than to stand on his soap box and drive his neighbors up the wall. The only reason he is glorified today is because he was central in changing the course of western philosophy, and the only account of what led up to his death was written by his unabashedly biased student, Plato. All that aside, westerns love martyrs. Hell, Christianity is a religion with a martyred God. In that classic Greek tradition, it makes for good melodrama.

Nihilistic Locomotive
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Posted 07/16/04 - 07:30 PM:	#10
Wuli wrote: The idea that Society killed him is a contradiction of his own belief in free will. [blue]"Being thoroughly enigmatical, unclassifiable, and inexplicable, he might have been asked to leave the city, and posterity would never have been justified in charging the Athenians with an ignominious deed. But that he was sentenced to death, not exile, Socrates himself seems to have brought about with perfect awareness and without any natural awe of death. He went to his death with the calm with which, according to Plato's description, he leaves the symposium at dawn, the last of the revelers, to begin a new day, while on the benches and on the earth his drowsy table companions remain behind to dream of Socrates, the true eroticist.[/blue] The dying Socrates[blue] became the new ideal, never seen before, of the noble Greek youths: above all, the typical Hellenic youth, Plato, prostrated himself before this image with all the ardent devotion of his enthusiastic soul."[/blue] End of Section 14 in Birth of The Tragedy of Kaufmann's Nietzsche.
Be outrageous but don't be an ass.

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