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The Socrates question

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The Socrates question

Nihilistic Locomotive
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Posted 07/19/04 - 03:59 PM:	#21
I don't like to be to persistent and dote on Nietzsche's use of the 'Socratic Demon' but there seems to be a mythological basis for which one can attempt to explain why great and worst of men are destroyed by their societies. I agree when darsunt talks about the political extremity protects and justifies the body of a society. Conflict necessarily keeps things in line. But I'm also interested in the quote below. I don't know Greek history, but is it foolish to ask whether or not it is the morale of the people that determines the decisions made by democratic body of politic, or even a feudal king? The death was unjust because the real cause of Athen's defeat were bad decisions and poor policies, not morale. So why do societies destroy their best men? This reminds me of the child coming to terms with the deficiency of parental authority. These bad decisions not only eat into the morale of the individual, they are the cause of rebellion.
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wuliheron
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Posted 07/19/04 - 07:14 PM:	#22
If society decides martyrs to various causes are "great men", then of course they will then see society as killing off all it's great men! Believe it or not, some societies do not put martyrs on pedestals. Some prefer to define really great men as those who survive despite problems with their society.

Impenitent
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Posted 07/19/04 - 08:39 PM:	#23
Socrates? noble martyr? Socrates' famous last words... "we owe a cock to Asclepios, remember to pay the debt" ... Asclepios? who was that? the god of medicine... Socrates thought that life was a disease...

Nihilistic Locomotive
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Posted 07/19/04 - 09:01 PM:	#24
Wuli wrote: Believe it or not, some societies do not put martyrs on pedestals. Some prefer to define really great men as those who survive despite problems with their society. Martyrs do survive long enough to die for whatever cause they later come to inspire within a society. They flourish post-mortem as heros, despite the fact that within historical context they are hidden and unattractive. Imparted in their records is recognition of men who 'survive' under oppression. Sometimes it seems that survival in the course of an individual's life requires a form of martyrdom or self-sacrifice insomuch as he is conceived, while living, to be a representative of ideals and a suffer of tyranny. Kafka, though not the embodiment of the universal ideal, willed his friends to burn the entire collection of his works upon his death. The question as to why he could not physically do it himself before the end is indeed an interesting question; and we are prone to ask whether or not what he intended actually occured, in the same manner that Nietzsche suggests Socrates was instinctually precipitating the future by the manipulation of mythical aesthetics. A 'great man' who is living must be subject to some ideal, and reduced of a particular humanity or freedom in someway. Despite Ghandi's principle ethic of non-violent non-cooperation, as a living hero of his country's liberation, could he not be called a martyr. He was killed by an Indian. Many loved him, and as a central figure and hub representative of the collective will he was extremely dangerous to his opposition. We may say that he sacrificed himself in two aspects: 1) He gave up a life of relative comfort and freedom for the burden of emancipation. 2) He was subject to a mythic requirement, under which a king is physically immolated. Such an extention of sacrificial phenomena is visible throughout Christiandom, the OT devotion of Abraham to kill his son by God's word, in monastic orders, the crucifixtion of Jesus, et cetera. Reason tells us what is to be expected when authority is challenged, and as a biological law sacrifice by killing innocents in order to eat is highly suggestive. Does society decide who is a martyr and can we expect to find them in all highly developed cultures? Who were considered great men in the Far-East?
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Jay
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Posted 07/19/04 - 09:10 PM:	#25
Grammaticus wrote: Some historians suggestion that Plato 'doctored' the account of Socrates trial, playing down the prosecutions' 'anti-democracy & associations to treason' charges, whilst pushing the impiety charge. My understanding of ancient Athens makes me question whether anyone (let alone Socrates) would have been sentenced to death over mere theological issues. Ironically everyone associated with the thirty, or who were believed to be supporters of the thirty were exhiled or executed. Socrates fell in such a case. The fact that Plato merely turned the trial into a defense against Aristophones' Play the clouds just makes you wonder whether or not he distorted the truth with regards to the actual trial. I would tend to think that Socrates political implications were far more involved than seems to be projected. Let us not forget one of his students was a member of the thirty, and as you yourself note, he was, or at least we know Plato was, strongly supportive of the Spartan egalitarianism and oppression. More likely, the olde goat was publically expressing a little bit too much of his well known sympathy for the Spartan model of society. Indeed, and at a time where the Athenians faced the greatest shame of their lives.

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Posted 07/19/04 - 09:12 PM:	#26
Impenitent wrote: Socrates? noble martyr? Socrates' famous last words... "we owe a cock to Asclepios, remember to pay the debt" ... Asclepios? who was that? the god of medicine... Socrates thought that life was a disease... Yes indeed, a disease he had cured himself of through his life long philosophy. The whole notion of philosophy in that period has a strong conception within its theraputic force. Consider the 'Therapy of Desire by Nausbaum.'

coberst
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Posted 07/22/04 - 09:58 AM:	#27
Can someone advise me as to a book or perhaps essay that would focus upon a study of Socrates' meaning of an examined life? I can find in the Apology where it is discussed but I am not aware of any close examination in detail of the meaning.

darsunt
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Posted 07/24/04 - 08:31 PM:	#28
My only reading of Socrates is from 'Socrates to Sartre', a history of philosophy, by Samul Stumpf. There is a chapter devoted to an overall view of his life, his philosophy, and his death. In his philosophy Stumpt discusses Socrate's opposition to the sophists, and his search for truth using the technique of dialectic. He discusses how Socrates equated knowledge with virtue, and virtue with fulfilling one's function. Stumpf states that in the pursuit of 'taking care of the human soul' Socrates spent most of his time 'examining' his own life and the life and thought of other Athenians. This is the only place where 'examination' is discusssed. Are you talking about the quote 'the unexamined life is not worth living' ?

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Posted 07/24/04 - 09:12 PM:	#29
coberst wrote: Can someone advise me as to a book or perhaps essay that would focus upon a study of Socrates' meaning of an examined life? I can find in the Apology where it is discussed but I am not aware of any close examination in detail of the meaning. ________________________________________ I know of no such book or essay. But my speculation is that "the unexamined life is not worth living" is connected to the famous Greek apothegm, "Know Thyself," which was reputedly inscribed on on the Sun god Apollo's Oracle of Delphi temple in ancient Greece. It was the Delphic Oracle who, Socrates reports in the same Apology told him that he was the wisest man in Greece which led him into his inquiry of why the Oracle told him such a thing. As a result, Socrates came to the conclusion that she did because although he knew nothing of importance (that qualification is important, since Socrates is often quoted as saying he knew absolutely nothing which is demonstrably false since he surely knew, for instance, that his name was Socrates, and that he had been born, and so on) other men thought they knew important things and they were wrong, but that he (Socrates) knew at least he knew nothing of importance. (Of course, there is a paradox here since presumably, knowing he knew nothing of importance was, itself, knowing something of importance). But the point is that Socrates began the process of examining himself in order to know himself. And, I think he thought that unless a person at least tried to know about himself, his life would be pointless. Also was Socrates' conviction that knowledge is a sufficient condition of living a virtuous life in that he thought that if one knew the right thing to do one would inevitably do the right thing (a very controversial view anyone would admit!) And that (another very controversial view) a virtuous man must be a happy man. As a consequence, examining one's own life is a necessary condition of leading a virtuous, and therefore, a happy life. Let me note that I am, in all this, of course inferring from, "an unexamined life is not worth living" its logical contrapositive, A life worth living is an examined life. As I said, this is just my speculation about what Socrates may have had in mind.

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