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The Relationship of Recognition.
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The Relationship of Recognition.

unenlightened
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Posted 10/25/09 - 08:44 PM:	#11
Wosret wrote: I'll bare that terrible burden. Have you met any pedophiles? This one I came across took two sugars in his coffee, and worked as a plumber. He was about six-foot three, and heavily built, and he ended up in prison for about five years. When he came out he was in a wheelchair. He was not terribly clever, and was rather self-satisfied, and even used to brag about his conquests, who were generally adolescent girls from poor homes that he 'took under his wing', when they fell out with their parents, and 'allowed' to stay with him. It was his mother who turned him in; I think she was jealous. He was also proud of drinking, and getting into lots of fights with the lads from the rugby club, which he claimed always to win. Not my sort of person really, but a person nonetheless.
...most of our actions are the result of the past, or according to a future ideal. That's not action, that is just conformity. J Krishnamurti "Philosophy, to the Philistine, is an evolutionary process, watched over by some sort of brisk dynamic Providence, and culminating in the supreme insight of modern thought." John Cowper Powys

Wosret
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Posted 10/25/09 - 09:57 PM:	#12
unenlightened wrote: Have you met any pedophiles? Probably, but none that advertised. This one I came across took two sugars in his coffee, and worked as a plumber. He was about six-foot three, and heavily built, and he ended up in prison for about five years. When he came out he was in a wheelchair. Yes, I do feel some pity for the inmates having to live in close proximity to a convicted child rapist. The urge to vanquish such a lonesome creature must be overwhelming -- surely the person that crippled him can call entrapment. He was not terribly clever, and was rather self-satisfied, and even used to brag about his conquests, who were generally adolescent girls from poor homes that he 'took under his wing', when they fell out with their parents, and 'allowed' to stay with him. It was his mother who turned him in; I think she was jealous. He was also proud of drinking, and getting into lots of fights with the lads from the rugby club, which he claimed always to win. Not my sort of person really, but a person nonetheless. A person whose extirpation from existence would brighten it, ever so slightly. My moral attention is only allotted to those who can't afford it, but must be purchased by those who can. The predator resting across the street is to be treated even more mercilessly than the fox biding its time below the floorboards of the chicken coop -- for the predator next door is far more dangerous, far more clever, and our "chickens" are enormously more precious. I refuse to "recognize" the humanity in those who've cast it to the wayside.
"If you've got any last words, say 'em now." - Nadie. "I am Horo the Wise." - Horo the Wise.

unenlightened
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Posted 10/25/09 - 10:31 PM:	#13
Wosret wrote: I refuse to "recognize" the humanity in those who've cast it to the wayside. Then alas, I cannot help you. My thesis, though, is that those who do not have their humanity recognised, do not have it to cast aside, and that, for good and ill, we are all in this together. It does not seem an improvement to match a crippled mind with a crippled body.
...most of our actions are the result of the past, or according to a future ideal. That's not action, that is just conformity. J Krishnamurti "Philosophy, to the Philistine, is an evolutionary process, watched over by some sort of brisk dynamic Providence, and culminating in the supreme insight of modern thought." John Cowper Powys

Wosret
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Posted 10/25/09 - 10:59 PM:	#14
unenlightened wrote: My thesis, though, is that those who do not have their humanity recognised, do not have it to cast aside... Then it is not there to be recognized either. ...and that, for good and ill, we are all in this together. Indeed, those of us who have placed themselves within our ranks. To take on the world with us -- not these wolves in sheep's clothing, waiting for us to turn our backs so that they may prey on our most defenseless, our most protected. It does not seem an improvement to match a crippled mind with a crippled body. If a single child's life is prevented from being destroyed on account of their impairment, then from whose perspective is this not an improvement? If the impairment extended beyond the legs, then all the better. Edited by Wosret on 10/25/09 - 11:06 PM
"If you've got any last words, say 'em now." - Nadie. "I am Horo the Wise." - Horo the Wise.

unenlightened
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Posted 10/25/09 - 11:26 PM:	#15
Wosret wrote: I wrote: ...those who do not have their humanity recognised, do not have it to cast aside... Then it is not there to be recognized either. I also wrote: ...the intelligent agent is invoked in the infant by treating him 'as if' he were an intelligent agent. Wosret wrote: ...from whose perspective is this not an improvement? If the impairment extended beyond the legs, then all the better. Have we not discussed the nature of a point of view? Either it is an improvement or it is not - perspective is not the determining factor. My notion of humanity, my sense of what a person is, comes from other people; it cannot be separated. So if my perspective is such as to limit humanity, then I am limiting myself, limiting my own humanity. A friend of mine once put it like this, and you are not going to like it because of who others say he was: "In as much as you do it unto the least of these my bretheren, you do it unto me." Edit. The humanity that you deny the other, is the inhumanity that you deny in yourself, and therefore see in that other. Please, do not do it. Edited by unenlightened on 10/25/09 - 11:35 PM
...most of our actions are the result of the past, or according to a future ideal. That's not action, that is just conformity. J Krishnamurti "Philosophy, to the Philistine, is an evolutionary process, watched over by some sort of brisk dynamic Providence, and culminating in the supreme insight of modern thought." John Cowper Powys

Desidude666
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Posted 10/25/09 - 11:46 PM:	#16
Recognition does not ideally present a problem to our choices. The examples you've quoted merely propositioned that the lack of recognition given to a criminal opens up avenues for him and justifies crime (ethical problem). You again do not quite underline the fact that the actions of a criminal are not the result of a lack of recognition of him, or the problems in the circumstance in which he committed the crime, rather it's his actions. You infer that recognition alone results in such actions, with the negative reactions giving birth to monsters. If you then expand on conflict, and then distinguish opponents prior to justification of opposition and thus conflict, I would then point out that recognition is not entirely the sole proposition; either of the circumstance or these people who 'fight'. You can recognize children positively, and they may turn out to be 'monster's in the future, there are no guarantees. In fact, the relationship with recognition and human beings is one that is light and very finite in terms of possibilities. You can always recognize someone and not act, you can always not recognize a problem and act anyway affecting a circumstance or individual. So as a suggestion, I would suggest action as the form of mandatory after-effect of recognition. Recognizing a problem alone does not mean anything until we act. Edited by Desidude666 on 10/26/09 - 12:04 AM
What you are, you are by accident of birth; what I am, I am by myself. There are and will be a thousand princes; there is only one Beethoven. - Ludwig van Beethoven

Wosret
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Posted 10/25/09 - 11:54 PM:	#17
unenlightened wrote: ...the intelligent agent is invoked in the infant by treating him 'as if' he were an intelligent agent. Can you produce any justification, let alone an analogous amount of it that would imply that treating child rapists as if they don't rape children will in anyway prevent them from raping children, as parents have for supposing that treating their kid as if they were an intelligent agent will result in this development? What was the cure for a paraphilia, and sexual desires again? Have we not discussed the nature of a point of view? Either it is an improvement or it is not - perspective is not the determining factor. So whether painting my living room blue would be an improvement over the current colour or not doesn't rely on evaluations? My notion of humanity, my sense of what a person is, comes from other people; it cannot be separated. So if my perspective is such as to limit humanity, then I am limiting myself, limiting my own humanity. A burden I'll carry. A friend of mine once put it like this, and you are not going to like it because of who others say he was: "In as much as you do it unto the least of these my bretheren, you do it unto me." I don't recognize his ability to take such a grandiose, and egocentric position. I fail to see the justice, or even dignity, in allotting someone moral consideration as a nod to someone else -- and in the case that he attempted to ward the beasts that prey on our young from the light of our torches, he would be an accomplice, not a savior. Edited by Wosret on 10/26/09 - 12:06 AM
"If you've got any last words, say 'em now." - Nadie. "I am Horo the Wise." - Horo the Wise.

Wosret
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Posted 10/26/09 - 12:12 AM:	#18
unenlightened wrote: Edit. The humanity that you deny the other, is the inhumanity that you deny in yourself, and therefore see in that other. Please, do not do it. I believe that I have repeated embraced this burden, and not denied it at any point. If my murderer within wields a double-edged sword, then I guess I'll have to take every cut in turn. It seems only appropriate. (If you get to be melodramatic then so do I!)
"If you've got any last words, say 'em now." - Nadie. "I am Horo the Wise." - Horo the Wise.

unenlightened
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Posted 10/26/09 - 07:08 AM:	#19
Wosret wrote: Can you produce any justification, let alone an analogous amount of it that would imply that treating child rapists as if they don't rape children ...etc, etc. Nowhere have I remotely suggested doing such a thing. I'm afraid you are blustering, and I cannot find a point to respond to.
...most of our actions are the result of the past, or according to a future ideal. That's not action, that is just conformity. J Krishnamurti "Philosophy, to the Philistine, is an evolutionary process, watched over by some sort of brisk dynamic Providence, and culminating in the supreme insight of modern thought." John Cowper Powys

Wosret
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Posted 10/26/09 - 07:24 AM:	#20
unenlightened wrote: Nowhere have I remotely suggested doing such a thing. I'm afraid you are blustering, and I cannot find a point to respond to. Then I fail to see in what way your analogy is meant to be analogous. Teaching children to be intelligent beings is justified because in doing so, they will become intelligent beings -- this was your suggestion, no? I think that my level of disturbance is appropriate, if not mildly thespian -- but I wouldn't want to hurt your ears, so I'll bellow in another direction. Ta ta.
"If you've got any last words, say 'em now." - Nadie. "I am Horo the Wise." - Horo the Wise.

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