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The Reality of God
A rational view of how God exists in and outside the universe

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The Reality of God

tommygun77
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Posted 10/27/09 - 11:16 PM: Subject: The Reality of GOd	#1
In order to imagine a God outside of time and other laws of the universe yet to be contained within it simultaneously I will bring in the example of something we know of that is outside of time and universal laws, yet interacts with the universe and these constants; the mind. My mind (as different to my intelligence) being the same as yours, appears to me as a rational process of thoughts and ideas that follow my body around, one that cares about my body as a passenger cares about the welfare of a ship he/she may be on, and one that is beyond the bounds of space. I can't touch it, feel it or see it. My thoughts (my mind) does not exist in the dimensions of space. Time does not weary it. The observation of time occurs, but the mind does not change throughout this process (the passing of time). From one day to the next my mind is constant and only exists in the present. It can not be observed ever existing in either the future or the past. I propose that God, if existing, would exist in a similar state, a kind of consciousness of the universe, born simultaneously. In this way it is possible for God to exist with an interventionist nature and enormous influence over the happenings of the universe. As we are all equal parts of this universe we are all part of the vessel that holds the 'God Mind' which would make us pretty special, but as when we die our bodies remain apart of the universe, we are not exceptional. As the mind exists in me, I have no trouble conceiving this possibility. As for why? I have no idea. Any thoughts welcomed!

d_martin
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Posted 10/28/09 - 07:44 AM:	#2
Then let me ask you this. Does God require a place to be in order to be? Such as the universe. Reason for asking is, if God required a place to be in order to be, then He would not be in command of the universe. But God being Almighty, requires no place to be, in order to be, therefore the universe is at His Will and is Commanded by His Willing presence therein.
You don’t have to believe something you don’t know is true, whether it be fact or fiction. But if you know it’s true?

ciceronianus
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Posted 10/28/09 - 08:57 AM:	#3
You apparently believe you are something different from "your mind." Why?
"Let us not pretend to doubt in philosophy what we do not doubt in our hearts."--C.S. Peirce "There is nothing so absurd but some philosopher has said it."--Marcus Tullius Cicero "Philosophy recovers itself when it ceases to be a device for dealing with the problems of philosophers and becomes a method, cultivated by philosophers, for dealing with the problems of men."--John Dewey

Dragohunter
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Posted 10/28/09 - 09:13 AM:	#4
Remember that "God exists outside of the universe" is a different statement then, "God's existence doesn't depend on the universe" The description of being in and out of something is a representation that our mind creates because of our perception of spacetime. Using this representation to God is false, and the confusion of the matter can easily be gone away with.
"Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein

Odin
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Posted 10/28/09 - 10:55 AM:	#5
ciceronianus wrote: You apparently believe you are something different from "your mind." Why? Descartes made a few arguments for why you are. One of them was something like, if your mind and your body are identical then they share all the same qualities. However, I can doubt the existence of my body, while I cannot doubt the existence of my mind. So the property of doubt in the body means that they don't share the same properties. Thus they are not the same. Interesting argument. Not sure how sound it is though.

ciceronianus
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Posted 10/28/09 - 02:55 PM:	#6
Odin wrote: Descartes made a few arguments for why you are. One of them was something like, if your mind and your body are identical then they share all the same qualities. However, I can doubt the existence of my body, while I cannot doubt the existence of my mind. So the property of doubt in the body means that they don't share the same properties. Thus they are not the same. Interesting argument. Not sure how sound it is though. For me, Descartes "doubt" is not doubt in any real sense. It is a kind of "pretend" doubt. If he "doubted" the existence of his body (accepting for the sake of argument the to me incredible distinction between body and mind he apparently makes) , he did so while existing and functioning, bodily, every moment of every day of his life, and even while writing about his "doubt." Doesn't seem much of a doubt to me.
"Let us not pretend to doubt in philosophy what we do not doubt in our hearts."--C.S. Peirce "There is nothing so absurd but some philosopher has said it."--Marcus Tullius Cicero "Philosophy recovers itself when it ceases to be a device for dealing with the problems of philosophers and becomes a method, cultivated by philosophers, for dealing with the problems of men."--John Dewey

Cadrache
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Posted 10/28/09 - 03:45 PM:	#7
mmm??? Do you have an alternate word for 'doubt' by chance?
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion. _____________________________________________ Truth is want. - The internal state of matters. Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.

tommygun77
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Posted 10/28/09 - 03:48 PM:	#8
ciceronianus wrote: You apparently believe you are something different from "your mind." Why? I percieve my mind to be abstract to my body and bodily functions. They are interdependent yet seperate entities. I believe this to be the case because my mind is not bound by the laws of physics, whereas my body is.

tommygun77
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Posted 10/28/09 - 03:52 PM:	#9
Dragohunter wrote: Remember that "God exists outside of the universe" is a different statement then, "God's existence doesn't depend on the universe" The description of being in and out of something is a representation that our mind creates because of our perception of spacetime. Using this representation to God is false, and the confusion of the matter can easily be gone away with. This may be true, but in my proposition God's existence *does* depend on the universe. Why shouldn't it?

Dragohunter
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Posted 10/28/09 - 04:15 PM:	#10
tommygun77 wrote: This may be true, but in my proposition God's existence *does* depend on the universe. Why shouldn't it? Then your defintion of God is different. The idea of God infers that the universe exists because God was responsible for its existence. If so, then the universe isn't responsible for God's existence.
"Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein

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