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The problem of Evil
(the Epicurean paradox)

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The problem of Evil

abba
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Posted 01/03/06 - 09:17 PM:	#141
Oops. Paulnbama wrote: Killing, weeds out the weak. Well, there's a nice philosophical tidbit. Quite a bit stronger than, say: Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Let's all get out there & kill off the weak. That kind of goes along with the mercenaries creed "Kill 'em all - let God sort 'em out." I guess that's one of the problems with evil - from someone's point-of-view it sounds good.

Paulnbama
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Posted 01/03/06 - 09:43 PM:	#142
abba wrote: Oops. Well, there's a nice philosophical tidbit. Quite a bit stronger than, say: Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Let's all get out there & kill off the weak. That kind of goes along with the mercenaries creed "Kill 'em all - let God sort 'em out." I guess that's one of the problems with evil - from someone's point-of-view it sounds good. Sorry about that one. But it's truth. It's called survival of the strongest. Happens everyday in nature. Unless you think that people aren't a part of nature and that these truths don't apply to us. I didn't say it was a holy or moral thing but it does serve a purpose. However just to let you know I'm on your side here is a verse for ya. Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! It must needs be that offences come? Why would Jesus say that? Even if you don't care why, do you agree that its true?
Zoe: I know something ain't right. Wash: Sweetie, we're crooks. If everything were right, we'd be in jail.

Gary
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Posted 01/04/06 - 12:31 AM:	#143
Abba Abba wrote - ”Gary: I agree that the creatio ex nihilo concept originated in 3rd century Christianity. I guess I need a primer on what ex nihilo has to do with the POE.” [ POE - Problem of Evil?] Abba - you do not need a primer, you will benefit more from creating your own “primer” by deep consideration and simple philosophizing about where your considerations may take you. Why don’t you begin with the most basic implications and see where it takes you. I am not a philosopher, but perhaps you might consider the implications of matter being eternal and possessing it’s own, inherent characteristics rather than created from nothing and having only characteristics bestowed upon it by God. Perhaps you could consider the relationship of God to that matter and to matter’s characteristics (e.g. Is God responsible for characteristics of matter which he did not create? Is he responsible for the organization he places upon that same uncreated matter?, etc, etc). Once you have exercised some mental effort regarding matter, perhaps you could move on to other topics. Is chaotic spirit matter? If it is, does it have characteristics of it’s own? If it has characteristics of it’s own, then what is God’s relationship to that particular matter that is spirit? (Is he responsible for characteristics of spirit-matter which he did not create? Is he responsible for the organization he places upon that type of matter, etc, etc, etc) Perhaps you could consider the moral situation of two different gods: 1) One is a God who creates absolutely everything out of nothing and therefore ALL characteristics of what he created are due to his will and his acts. 2) The other is a God who finds himself surrounded by varying types of matter; matter which posseses it’s own inherent characteristics; matter which he then organizes as he desires for his own purposes. What is the moral relationship of these two Gods to their particular creations? My point is NOT to guide you to specifics. I am NOT a philosopher. However, I am aware of how the ancient viewed many of these questions and have seen that their framework and their understanding of how the moral universe worked was understood very differently for them. I do not think that the modern christian doctrines have any advantage at all over the ancient christian beliefs. Though there are many differences of equal import, perhaps you might consider if THIS single doctrine of creation from pre-existing and eternal matter has implications which can give you a different framework to discuss the universe you are in. If you want me to chime in from time to time, I will, but I would just as soon watch from the sidelines as much as possible. I have so very little time to become wrapped up in the forum. I have read much of what these ancient philosopher-apologists have written but I think you are probably better at philosophizing (sic?) than I, and I would be better off staying with my a historical-language interests. Gary Edited by Gary on 01/04/06 - 01:13 AM. Reason: clarity - always clarity

blacktheos
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Posted 01/04/06 - 12:55 AM:	#144
Paulnbama wrote: I think evil is inherent. if god is omniscient, he knows all (past present future, everything). keeping this in mind. if before creation there was nothing but god, no other other gods, no other creators. nothing. he, by himself, formed the entire universe. this means he created EVERYTHING that exists, correct? even before everything was created, he knew everything that would happen. he is omniscient. he knows his divine plan and how EVERYTHING will turn out. god, created his full host of angels to serve him, including lucifer. god knew lucifer would turn on him, even before he was created, because god knows all. right? so, god, knowing that lucifer would create all the evil in the world, created him anyway. god therefore created evil, either directly or indirectly. god, on the 6th day, creates man... man chose evil. god knew this well in advance before anything was formed, but created adam anyway. ergo, god cannot be pure 'good' and 'holy' (since he is the origin of evil). also, you speak of evil being a plague upon man kind all being a part of god's plan. you suggest that god created evil for this purpose. in which case... you seem to support me. if there is a god, he is the source of all evil. (however this is all assuming that such thing of 'god' exists) Edited by blacktheos on 01/04/06 - 01:00 AM

Paulnbama
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Posted 01/04/06 - 05:51 AM:	#145
blacktheos wrote: so, god, knowing that lucifer would create all the evil in the world, created him anyway. god therefore created evil, either directly or indirectly. Actually evil is always a possible byproduct of choice (freedom of choice). There are evil spirits, but they are not the creators of evil in this world no more than we are. However the choices we make and the paths we take may result in evil. Lucifer was created a perfect angelic creature with freedoms to rebel or not rebel. Yes god forsaw it, but he did not stop it. Ultimately, Satan and his evil angels, the demons, furnish examples of all that is evil along with the hideous consequences of evil. Satan is a rebel, a liar, a murderer, a deceiver, a slanderer, a tempter, a distorter, and one who opposes all that is good, righteous, and holy. As a murderer from the beginning and the father of lies who tempted Eve in Eden, he ultimately becomes the father of all that is evil. This, of course, does not abdicate man from his responsibility to choose what is good nor can we blame Satan for our own sin, though he is always on the prowl to promote sin and to deceive and tempt us. Though Satan tempts us constantly, our temptation to sin ultimately stems from our own lusts that wage war in our souls . blacktheos wrote: you suggest that god created evil for this purpose. in which case... you seem to support me. if there is a god, he is the source of all evil. Below is a quote I found relevent to this discussion. From another site. "Not created but allowed as a byproduct. So why did God allow it? Perhaps the answer lies in the aftermath of sin since God’s glory is displayed even more. "Just as nothing displays the splendor of a diamond in the light more than a backdrop of black velvet, so nothing could display the glory of God’s mercy, goodness, grace, and love as much as the blackness of man’s sin." Because this perplexes the human mind, many reject the whole idea of God or postulate weakness to God or in some way find fault with God. But the Bible has some important words of warning regarding such a response and the story of Job, his trials, the activity of Satan and the good angels as mentioned in Job are instructive here. Although it is a study to be done in one's own time, the book of Job is significant to questions regarding the moral problem of evil and the presence of suffering because of the insight it gives us into the adversarial activity of Satan and the activities of angels called “sons of God”." eoq J. Hampton Keathley, III , Th.M. I thought the above sufficiently addresses many some of this better than I could. If of course you accept the bible as truth and God as real. Let's just be careful of rejecting a Creator that is willing to put up with evil and its outcomes in order to have a creation based on freedom of thoughts and choice. I'd much rather have the freedom of my own thoughts than be a robot in a perfect and sanitized world. That is saying a plenty knowing the heartache and trouble that evil causes.
Zoe: I know something ain't right. Wash: Sweetie, we're crooks. If everything were right, we'd be in jail.

abba
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Posted 01/04/06 - 07:05 AM:	#146
Gary: OK, I see where you are coming from. Are you aware that this is essentially a Mormon tenet? I do reject that "matter" has any spiritual effect or influence over God... whether matter happened to pre-exist the creation of our universe or not (the same goes for the energy membranes posited by Brane Theory). That Scripture or the Big Bang Theory doesn't explicitly cover the ex nihilo creation of matter does not seem to be a spiritual detriment to me; and certainly not a reason for hypothecating ungodly evil spirits connected to matter.

Gary
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Posted 01/04/06 - 01:46 PM:	#147
Abba If as you say, the doctrine is common to both modern mormon orthodoxy as well as ancient christian orthodoxy, then “good for them” they are consistent with early christianity in this particular belief. Hopefully there are other modern christians who hold to creation from chaotic ‘matter’ rather than from creation out of ‘nothing”. Such christians and are free from the logical quagmire of where such doctrines lead. Blacktheos suggests that if God created absolutely everything, then he IS responsible for absolutely everything. Abba wrote - ”I do reject that "matter" has any spiritual effect or influence over God.” Like yourself, I also see no reason to believe that matter has any ‘dominance’ over deity. I see no reason why etermal matter, having it’s own characteristics need have dominance over God, but God would dominate them. The particles within the concrete in my home are as old as the particles in my own body, yet it is I who organize and maintain control over them, and not the other way around. Abba wrote - ex nihilo creation of matter does not seem to be a spiritual detriment to me; and certainly not a reason for hypothecating ungodly evil spirits connected to matter. You will have to explain your philosophizing regarding evil spirits and matter before I can understand it. The apostle Peter, when he first meets Clement, specifically tells Clement that there is nothing “evil” about matter per se, so I’m not sure the direction your philosophizing is taking you. Why don’t you consider matter first, at least to SOME extent before you try applying you philosophizing to morals; to good and evil. You haven’t scratched the surface yet regarding matter. Gary Edited by Gary on 01/04/06 - 10:24 PM. Reason: clarity

Lance-a-lot
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Posted 01/04/06 - 02:12 PM:	#148
Ok I have not read all the replies but I don’t think that its idea has been talked about. So far all the replies (that ive read) are all based one thing. That good and evil are constant and unchanging. However the concepts of good and evil are based on the social construct. For example wars are considered evil and not good for the world but if you have a holy war then that a different story because you are fighting for your god. So it’s all a mater of persecution.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem - Okham's Razor (Entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity) "We are nothing more then an improbability in a universe of infinite possibilities"

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Posted 01/04/06 - 08:29 PM:	#149
Paulnbama wrote: It seems that easiest way to explain things that science 'true science' can't explain is to say all this came from another dimension. But there are scientific theories that say the same thing--or at least something very similar. Particularly popular among astronomers (though this is relative as it is not particularly popular in general) is the theory that the Big Bang resulted from a "leak" in another universe. Now, I'm not quite sure what to make of this theory and I don't know a lot about it, but it seems to be similar to what you are saying in the above quote. Lance-a-lot wrote: So far all the replies (that ive read) are all based one thing. That good and evil are constant and unchanging. However the concepts of good and evil are based on the social construct. Well, the concepts are relative, insofar as what we recognize as good and evil, and I would argue that this is as far as the concepts go. But without that argument, there is no reason for anyone to believe you rather than just saying that the concepts as they are known to humans are relative but in actual reality are not. Perhaps secular and sacred wars are ontologically different enough to have different moral worth in the final analysis. If so, the theist can easily hold on to a concept of an unchanging good/evil distinction simply by accusing you of generalizing too far. Then again, the theist doesn't even have to go so far as saying all secular wars are wrong and all holy wars are right. Perhaps only holy wars for the "true religion" are okay. And perhaps there is such a thing as "just war" and it can be waged for the sake of morality, rather than for the sake of God. Moreover, the theist does not use the social construct as an indicator of truth. Therefore, its opinions are largely irrelevant to his moral code. And, of course, there's always the option of denouncing all holy wars as well. All of these options maintain a constant and unchanging good/evil distinction while allowing for differing opinions among societies. After all, no one ever said moral ignorance couldn't exist. (Obviously, I do not endorse these moves that the theist could make, but they are certainly moves that get around the points you have raised.)
"It is not a mistake to have strong views. The mistake is to have nothing else." --Anthony Weston "If you can't imagine how anyone could hold the view you are attacking, you just don't understand it yet." --Anthony Weston

Lance-a-lot
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Posted 01/05/06 - 12:54 PM: Subject: Everything is relative, ergo not constant and unchanging	#150
Postmodern Beatnik wrote: "Well, the concepts are relative" and "All of these options maintain a constant and unchanging good/evil distinction while allowing for differing opinions among societies" Don’t you see a contradiction? I do. If the two concepts are relative and will change per person and there are 6 billion people on the planet, then that would make the phenomenon of good and evil not so mush a phenomenon but a fabrication. Because it is not constant and unchanging. Yes I do admit that there are common ground in everyone’s concept of good and evil but the fact of the matter is that it does change what it is considered evil for some may be considered good for others. And that my friend is problem. I believe that there is neither good nor evil and that we (are a society) have created theses concepts. The killing of others should only be an act of self defense. And on a governmental and international scale there should be no wars because it only causes more problems then it creates. Now that does not mean that I think that wars are “evil” but I do believe that it does not help our society are a whole. And back to the point of “just” and “holy” wars that some believe to be “good”. For example “holy” wars have been going on for centuries. And there Holy war may be ether supported by a large number of people (the crusades) or a minority (the jihads that are going on now). I don’t see how killing for something that has not even been proven to be a just cause (the concept of god I mean). And about Just wars, people believe that things are just because of the people in power tell then that it is just. I.e. the war in Iraq it clamed to be based on the dictator ship of Shadam Husain and his weapons of mass destruction. However they did not find any so the means to the end were not justified and in reality not just so a fabrication by the people in power to make you believe what they want you to believe. if you have anything to ad or reject please say so.

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