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The Priest, The Philosopher, and The Physcist
An dialogue on the existence of a supreme personal God.

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The Priest, The Philosopher, and The Physcist

Aceedwin
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Posted 09/01/09 - 01:33 AM:	#11
How strange. How very, very strange. It's quite tempting to do one of my own. Adressing the problem of evil, and some more atheist arguments...
Some people enjoy finding answers, but I dislike losing questions.

ben_tam64
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Posted 09/01/09 - 01:36 AM:	#12
Well done 180, great story. It is nice to have a contrasting point of approach. Glad to see this post has generated some thoughtful responses. And Ciceronianus, yup. This isn't meant to prove anything. It's sole purpose is to present the arguements and stimulate thought

ben_tam64
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Posted 09/01/09 - 01:38 AM:	#13
Aceedwin wrote: How strange. How very, very strange. It's quite tempting to do one of my own. Adressing the problem of evil, and some more atheist arguments... Go for it!

Aceedwin
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Posted 09/01/09 - 03:23 AM:	#14
Huh... Setting: Suburban house doorway. A theist approaches it, preparing himself to deliver his preaching. As he reaches for the doorbell, the door opens. Atheist: Hello? Theist: Good day to you, I'm here to talk to you about the love of our lord and how he can bring hope to your life. Atheist: Not this rubbish again... Theist: I'm sorry, what does that mean? Atheist: Well look. You come round to my house every other week to tell me about this god of yours, but I'm never convinced. You never give very satisfactory evidence! Theist: Really now, what evidence do you have for not believing? Hmmm? Give me your reason for being an atheist. Atheist: I have a heap of answers to that question. Firstly, your god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevelont, correct? Theist: My Lord is all of those things. Atheist: Well then, immediately we find a reason why I would not want to believe in you god. I mean, if there is a perfect being out there, any achievement I make will simply be miniscule in your god's shadow. It is only possible to be "as good as" your god, and the same goes for many other gods. Theist: Well, that seems a selfish reason to me. What you're saying is that you reject God simply because he is better than you. My child, with that thinking, you're unlikely to ever be as good as my God. And anyway, not wanting something doesn't make it go away. Atheist: And neither wanting something make it real. Theist: Precisely, our wants have no effect on our Lord. Atheist: Ugh, you even pronounce the capital letters... No matter, let me tell you something. Last week, I read in the paper about horrible things going on in the middle east. While I'm sure the stories we are given are probably a little exaggerated, the rape and mass murder really do happen. If your god is so powerful, and loving and he knows about it, then why does he not stop it? Theist: Well, he holds his temper, for he knows that those who perpetrate such acts will be cast into the fiery pits of hell. Atheist: But then, surely that is no different from knowing you could stop a friend who wants to murder someone? Are you not at least partly responsible for his time in jail. Theist: Well, if our Lord was to stop them, He would be taking our greatest gift of all. Free will. Our choices are our own. Atheist: Then what about the tsunami? It killed thousands, are you telling me they were all sinners? Theist: God can't just suspend the laws of physics He created. It would be a shallow world. Atheist: I find your defences quite lacking. Theist: Well, I find them perfectly sound. Atheist: Fine, I have one more argument to pull on you. Theist: Oh yes? Very well, bring it on. My Lord shall help you see the truth. Atheist: It goes like this: <he slams the door> Fin. You asked for it, let's all remember that.
Some people enjoy finding answers, but I dislike losing questions.

ciceronianus
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Posted 09/01/09 - 11:20 AM:	#15
Oh very well. My turn. Scene: The living room of Ciceronianus. Time: 3:00 a.m. Day is unimportant. He sits with his cat, Sulla. He's drinking Laphroiag. C: It's so smokey. I love it. Sulla: [sighs] I know. Entering from stage left, a Jesuit. Jesuit: It's God time! Sulla: [sighs] I know. C: You again, eh? Jesuit: No, an even better me. A kind of super me, in fact. Now I know all that stuff you used to wonder about! C: Mirabile dictu, eh Sulla? Sulla: [groans] C: The ontological proof? Jesuit: Sure! Why not? I can conceive it, so it must be true! Did you know Bertrand Russell once... C: Yes, I know the story. I'm unimpressed. Don't like him to begin with, you know. Sulla: [to priest] Ciceronianus has always had a fondness for the cosmological proof, and arguments based on the apparent design of the universe, that is to say, the fact that much of it is intelligible. Jesuit: Me too! How about that Big Bang? Everything, in fact, had a beginning, so... C: Don't say it. Jesuit: It was God! It had to be God! C: There are other theories, you know. Mutliverse, that sort of thing. And, even if it was God, how do we know it's the one you fellows taught us about? Jesuit: Any God will do for our purposes, as a starting point. Entering from stage right, Thomas Aquinas, riding on a cart pulled by Aristotle. Aquinas: You can say that again. Sulla: [to ciceronianus] That guy ate everything in sight last time he was here. Even my food, dammit. Get rid of him. Aristotle: I can't. He follows me everywhere. C.S. Peirce enters. Peirce: [to ciceronianus] Figured it out yet? Ciceronianus: No. "Musement" indeed. Why do you have to be so strange, making up words? But, I confess I'm rather fond of your thinking, also. But, why assume that because our minds seem to be formed in such a way as to figure out the universe, and we seem to want there to be a God, that there is a God? Sulla: [to himself] Humans. Peirce: Well, we can't be sure, can we? That's never bothered you before. You're always saying that we don't need to be certain to make reasonable judgments. Sulla: He just says that because he reads you and other pragmatists, especially Dewey. [he looks about, fearful that Dewey will appear]. Ciceronianus: Are you maintaining that while we cannot be certain, there is a reasonable basis on which we can infer God's existence? Aristotle: Well, something anyway. Aquinas: And we call that something "God." Aristotle: You mean you do. Peirce: Something like that. But, you still haven't figured me out yet. Ciceronianus: True. Something like "to a reasonable degree of probablity" you mean? Peirce: As you lawyers would say. Jesuit: We say that too! Ciceronianus: [groans] There follows a pause, in which Sulla licks at his paw. Ciceronianus: It would be nice if it were true though, wouldn't it? Or some of it, in any case. To see the people you love again, I mean. Stuff like that. And, to have some explanation for this feeling, this... Peirce: Musement? Ciceronianus: Just what the hell is abductive reasoning anyhow? Aristotle and Aquinas: Abductive what? Sulla: [to himself] Too much scotch. Well, at least he'll be asleep soon.
"Let us not pretend to doubt in philosophy what we do not doubt in our hearts."--C.S. Peirce "There is nothing so absurd but some philosopher has said it."--Marcus Tullius Cicero "Philosophy recovers itself when it ceases to be a device for dealing with the problems of philosophers and becomes a method, cultivated by philosophers, for dealing with the problems of men."--John Dewey

Cadrache
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Posted 09/01/09 - 11:30 AM:	#16
I always liked the Physicist that argues for and against God and Athiesism. Nice Kitty name.
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion. _____________________________________________ Truth is want. - The internal state of matters. Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.

ben_tam64
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Posted 10/19/09 - 07:44 PM:	#17
Haha great stories guys, "Ciceronianus: Just what the hell is abductive reasoning anyhow? Aristotle and Aquinas: Abductive what? Sulla: [to himself] Too much scotch. Well, at least he'll be asleep soon." Hah!!

rigelrover
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Posted 11/06/09 - 12:17 PM:	#18
ciceronianus wrote: Ciceronianus: It would be nice if it were true though, wouldn't it? Or some of it, in any case. To see the people you love again, I mean. Stuff like that. And, to have some explanation for this feeling, this... Thanks for sharing cic.
I am more interested in questions than answers; dialog than dictation. If we can reasonably believe that there is not just a breach, but a fundamentally unclosable gap between the individual mind and the ultimate nature of the reality; the primordial thing in itself, then 'true' mystery does exist.

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