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The Possibility of Masochism?

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The Possibility of Masochism?
JAC
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Posted 11/03/07 - 04:13 PM:
Subject: The Possibility of Masochism? 		quote post
#1
If one takes pleasure in one's own suffering (masochism) then one is not really suffering, but rather finding pleasure - and vise-versa. So, how is it possible to find pleasure in pain if you are only feeling one and, thus, can not feel the other?

The only way to find pleasure in suffering is to define suffering as something independent of human feelings. You have to say that pain is "this", regardless of whether a human says "Ouch" or not.

With science, we can define pain as a certain chemical reaction in the brain, for example; however, we can not really say whether or not the individual feels pain. Thus, sadism (and its opposite) could be made possible by defining pain (and pleasure) as something independent of human "feelings"; but, then, do we not lose the essence of what pain is, and what pleasure is?

Perhaps, then, we can not really define pain or pleasure as something independent of us, but only say that "this is happening in your brain at time A" and then allow the individual to decide for themselves whether that certain feeling is one of pain or pleasure. But, then, sadism is not really possible. The problem reverts back to my first paragraph and, I think, may help to add a bit of evidence for believing, ultimately, in human subjectivity. Since everything comes down to your interpretation of events (as pain or pleasure, good or bad), the physical world itself is void of any meaning, purpose, or value, and the individual must will these things upon the external world.


As you may have been able to tell, I have worked out my thoughts on this issue only a bit, as it seems to me - and I am sure to you - a complicated one. Also, as an atheist, I find believing in a second substance (even one as pantheistic as Schopenhauer's will) questionable (although, if I were to explicate my thoughts on this issue even more so, specifically regarding what led me to this issue in the first place, I would sound very pantheistic... maybe I am one in similar to vein to the natural pantheists, i.e., an atheistic pantheist... confused ). This is why I would like to hear your thoughts on the issue. Thanks.

Edited by JAC on 11/05/07 - 05:12 PM
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Posted 11/04/07 - 05:01 AM:
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#2
www.answers.com/topic/sadism-and-masochism-as-medical-terms wrote:


Sadism and masochism, in the original sense, describe psychiatric disorders characterized by feelings of sexual pleasure or gratification when inflicting suffering or having it inflicted upon the self, respectively. Sadomasochism is used in psychiatry to describe either the co-occurrence of sadism and masochism in one person as separate disorders, or as a replacement for both terms, depending on the theory used. The definitions of sadism and masochism in medicine have been modified repeatedly since they were introduced by the Austrian psychiatrist Richard Freiherr von Krafft-Ebing in the 19th century (Krafft-Ebing 1901).


If you want to talk brain-speak, the pain and pleasure centres are separate, and both can be stimulated at the same time. In more human terms, pain and pleasure are not opposites. The prevalence of self-harming in this culture is probably connected to self mortification in the past. People choose to do these things because they have meaning, or they give meaning; perhaps there is a cartesian aspect - I hurt, therefore I am. There seems to be a feeling of peace, or contentment that is produced. To revert to brain-speak again, there is a release of endorphins as a result of pain, which perhaps has the effect of relieving an underlying psychological distress. One can become addicted to this; it is the same effect that athletes get by breaking through 'the pain barrier'.

You should be clear that 'sadism' normally refers to the enjoyment of the pain of others, and masochism to the enjoyment of one's own pain - though the two are closely related.
The observer is the observed. J Krishnamurti

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JAC
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Posted 11/04/07 - 02:05 PM:
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unenlightened wrote:
If you want to talk brain-speak, the pain and pleasure centres are separate, and both can be stimulated at the same time. In more human terms, pain and pleasure are not opposites. The prevalence of self-harming in this culture is probably connected to self mortification in the past. People choose to do these things because they have meaning, or they give meaning; perhaps there is a cartesian aspect - I hurt, therefore I am. There seems to be a feeling of peace, or contentment that is produced. To revert to brain-speak again, there is a release of endorphins as a result of pain, which perhaps has the effect of relieving an underlying psychological distress. One can become addicted to this; it is the same effect that athletes get by breaking through 'the pain barrier'.

Alright, well that answers my question fairly well, then. I still wonder, however, if you asked someone what they are feeling during event "A", they would not say both pain and pleasure, even if both parts of the brain were being stimulated - or would they? I would think that they would only say one.

And I suppose my question would also want to know, if someone poked me with a needle in my finger and the pain part of my brain went off, could I still enjoy the feeling? Even without any stimulation of the "pleasure" portion of the brain?
"A life with love will have many thorns, but a life without love will have no roses."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"I feel as if I were a piece in a game of chess, when my opponent says of it: That piece can not be moved."
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Posted 11/05/07 - 05:44 AM:
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#4
I talked to a guy who's into tattoos. He says it hurts. But then he starts designing the next one. He used to self harm and regards this as more positive. I don't think just arbitary pain is going to be the same, but maybe if it was Miss whiplash hurting you...shocked

I guess the nearest I get is something like swimming in a cold sea; you have to force yourself to suffer the cold, but then you get used to it and afterwards you feel great.
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Posted 11/05/07 - 10:23 AM:
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Well, I’ve heard about the theory of sadism and atheism but couldn’t get hold of this article jet but it’s on order.
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/philosoph...

Some people belief in the theory of sadism and some people’s pleasure of suffering pain. Personally, I would not agree with this theory but I know there are some people admitting the pleasure of example by practising SM.

Of course, suffering pain is part of human feelings that we feel through our body so we can say that body and feelings are both linked together. For example, we express our feelings of pain through bodily reactions, which are necessary in order to activate our warning system in case of suffering pain.
For example, a mother denies accepting the boy crying if he is in pain, by saying oh no you are crying for noting you were not hurt. The logic reaction for this boy would be as an adult he denying his own feelings to show, not even if he makes another person suffering and being a sadist. In psychology, it it is called emotional immaturity.
Sadism as I understand it a form of self-hate to punish either one selves or somebody else with Schadenfreude, (the feeling to be happy if one is suffering) which explains to me someone’s emotional misbalance and the need if emotional learning. wink


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Posted 11/05/07 - 10:38 AM:
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadism_and_masochism...
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Posted 11/05/07 - 03:24 PM:
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You should be clear that 'sadism' normally refers to the enjoyment of the pain of others, and masochism to the enjoyment of one's own pain - though the two are closely related.






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Posted 11/05/07 - 06:03 PM:
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#8
Have you ever seen the movie Fight Club?

I think self-destruction can be a healthier habit than the obsessiveness of the plastic-surgery-types and the materialists who desperately chase some worthless ideal in a perverted form of self-improvement.

I think the human psyche, especially in a social context, is more dynamic than a one-dimensional separation of pain and pleasure. The masochist has a complex and obsession that is quite appropriately referred to as masochism, seeing that the person inflicts pain and suffering upon themselves. (Granted, there is much to explore in the seeming contradiction of a being supposedly driven solely by an instinct to gain happiness and avoid pain wanting to inflict pain.) Additionally, there are sadists, and the word sadism is quite appropriate.

What I find especially interesting is the empathetic sadist (as opposed to the rarer sociopath). IMO, empathetic sadism can easily be seen as a form of masochism.

When talking about human psychology, many times there are ironies and what could be mistaken for contradictions. That is the result of the conflicting and confused nature of the human mind. It is magnified by the fact they we like to conceptualize people singularly. (We like to think of each person as a single, static person with one singular mind, which we call the self.) Of course, in reality, a person is a collection of various different parts, thoughts, desires, emotions and instincts. For example, part of a person can want one thing, while another part of the person wants a different (and perhaps conflicting) thing. Part of the person can feel one way, when they other part feels a different (and perhaps conflicting) way.

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Posted 11/06/07 - 01:48 AM:
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#9
I was particularly thinking about those prisoners at Guantánamo and the sadism they have experienced in this prison.

Nobody would argue that those prisoners did not have a tendency for masochism, nor did anyone there enjoy being tortured. Therefore, I would argue that some people’s theory about the interdependency of sadism and masochism is perhaps a suitable theory just for the sadist himself to justify his lack of empathy for others.


http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/may2006/guan-m2...

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Posted 11/06/07 - 04:33 AM:
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I don't think the interdependency is such that a sadist will only be sadistic to a masochist. Rather the connection is internal; the sadist probably also has masochistic tendencies him/herself. But perhaps it would be useful to distinguish what one might call 'the social sadist' from the self motivated sadist - the side-kick from the bully. In situations like Guantanamo, there is probably a strong social pressure to conform to a sadistic general attitude that serves to 'justify' the internment in the first place. In this case the pleasure is not from the sadism itself but from the feeling of togetherness and security that comes from 'conforming'.
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