The Possibility of Masochism?: Philosophy Forums

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The Possibility of Masochism?

loui100
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Posted 01/02/08 - 09:59 AM:	#21
Sorry, but I simply cannot agree with jaoman's theory of masochism. Your suggestion that masochism origins from the need of a tribal leader or some form of sucurity appears far too abstract and far too social for something that is, essentially, sexual in its foundation. Submission indeed appears but it has little to do with social needs. I am a masochist I assure you, the reason for this deviation is impossible to explain by common reason. I very much value my social position and detest submission in general. Its when i am, so to speak, in a sexual mode, that I find these kinds of urges. Thus, one may conclude that masochism is sexual and instinctive in origin and the need for submission is merely a strange sexual symptom rather than an actual socially-linked deviation. Furthermore, I experienced masochism since very early age, 6-7 perhaps, which leads me to the supposition that masochism is actually either innate or developed very early, and not so much psychological as biological in nature.

Moorhuhn
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Posted 01/02/08 - 11:00 AM:	#22
Well, if everybody has something to confess so I will to the same. I am neither a masochist, nor do I prefer sadism or those being linked to it. My ability to stand a lot of emotional pain is rather a fact of kindness and experiences, which should not be wrongly, interpretated, by anyone even though it happened in the past. I do not feel pleasure in suffering pain, neither physical nor emotional but I can very well imagine, that a sadist feels pleasure by causing harm on others, which I would see as a mental disorder, like many others would call it the same. To think of masochism as an instinct sounds rather strange to me, perhaps if thinking of humans as heard animal you could develop such an idea, but I can assure you, I am not an heard animal, never have been. Neither have I been a submissive person, or have ever expected someone to live up my expectations, which the sadist maybe dreams off. I can stand in my power as many others did long before me, cos it’s part of my cultural identity.
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loui100
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1 of 1 people found this post helpful Posted 01/03/08 - 05:03 AM:	#23
Well, to me any instance of a sexual deviation that is NOT linked to the subconscious and the insticts is merely an exception from the general rule. I can't personally name a single case of "social" sexual deviation. Homosexuality- exposure to hormones in pre-natal state Pedophilia- most likely afixxation of the suboncscious in the early sexual stage/ admirations Various fetishes- association of certain objects/ actions in the subconscious with arousing pheromones Everything seems to be in the subconscious, has to be in the subconscious because that is where sexuality is, its instinctive. If any sexual deviations were conscious then it wouldn't be so hard to understand the principles on which they function and their origins. As it is, random association processes come in place and its much harder to localize a specific origin point of such deviations.

Moorhuhn
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Posted 01/04/08 - 05:21 AM:	#24
Just last night I found a very interesting article about the issue of masochism and sadism where the author said masochism is inseparable from sadism developed through the situation of childhood experiences (lack of emotional education and upbringing). Children experience forkful or communication between father and mother, and not seldom developing oedipal desires towards either mother of father which reflects in their relationship. Unfortunately, the text wasn’t written in English but Dr. Volker Faust bases the theory on Marquis de Sade
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jaoman
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Posted 01/04/08 - 08:55 AM:	#25
loui100 wrote: Your suggestion that masochism origins from the need of a tribal leader or some form of sucurity appears far too abstract and far too social for something that is, essentially, sexual in its foundation. Submission indeed appears but it has little to do with social needs. I am a masochist I assure you, the reason for this deviation is impossible to explain by common reason. I very much value my social position and detest submission in general. Its when i am, so to speak, in a sexual mode, that I find these kinds of urges. Thus, one may conclude that masochism is sexual and instinctive in origin and the need for submission is merely a strange sexual symptom rather than an actual socially-linked deviation. I don’t make the distinction you do. I don’t see how the sexual can be separated from the social. What we are talking about here is not, after all, mating, but rather arousal – foreplay. In the wild, this practice is designed to attract and select a suitable mate. People have made it casual, but the core instinct is still there. But see, how do we select our mates, of not socially? We enter a group of people and analyze their behaviors for compatible signals. In this sense, foreplay is all about social signals. Why then would social responses not be a crucial component of what we are looking for? There are hundreds of examples of this being the case. However, that said, I don’t mean that your kink somehow defines your social self perception or your position in society. I get a sense you misunderstood me on that. I’m not saying that it is a defining social instinct; I’m arguing that it is a branch of social instincts that deals with finding a mate. On the other hand, in a different social environment you may well respond to different imperatives. Moorhuhn wrote: Well, if everybody has something to confess so I will to the same. I am neither a masochist, nor do I prefer sadism or those being linked to it. My ability to stand a lot of emotional pain is rather a fact of kindness and experiences, which should not be wrongly, interpretated, by anyone even though it happened in the past. I do not feel pleasure in suffering pain, neither physical nor emotional but I can very well imagine, that a sadist feels pleasure by causing harm on others, which I would see as a mental disorder, like many others would call it the same. Your preferences are absolutely your own and I make no claim about them. But here’s a hypothetical situation for you, see what you make of it. We have a harsh BDSM scene: ropes, whips, gags, and the works. Happening tonight at a play party near you. Then the scene ends. The whips are hung on the wall, the ropes are undone, and the gag is removed from the masochist’s mouth. At this point, what we have are two smiling people. Neither one has been seriously injured; both have had wonderful orgasms and feel physically fulfilled. Now are you going to seriously tell me that either of these people is sick? And if so, why? If the masochist is satisfied, and the two of them went into the scene knowing each other’s preferences, is what they did any different from two people loving each other through tender caresses? I don’t see it. Joy is joy however you produce it. Edited by jaoman on 01/04/08 - 09:55 AM
"With no relation to class or social background, whether it suits them or not, people yearn for a dream. Sustained by a dream, hurt by a dream, revived by a dream, killed by a dream. And even after being abandoned by a dream, it continues to smolder from the bottom of one's heart... probably until the verge of death. A man should envision such a lifetime once. A life spent as a martyr to the god named "dream." - Kentaro Miura

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1 of 1 people found this post helpful Posted 01/04/08 - 01:01 PM:	#26
Of course I do agreed with your point of view, as long both parties enjoy each other ( not matter how) I wouldn’t call it ill minded sexuality. Unfortunately, there are cases where one would go to far with it, could even killing his/her partner when reaching the point of no return, and that would be my main concern about it. Another concern came to my mind in terms of punishment. Just causing pain on the other person, in order to socially controlling his/her behaviour, or for any kind of failure. To make it clear, sadism or even masochism both have absolutely nothing to do with physical pleasure but very much with the hate of sexuality.
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Rinoa0
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Posted 01/20/08 - 10:21 AM:	#27
I have to say, in many cases I don't believe it's the actual pain inflicted that either sadist or masochist find pleasurable, but it's the control, or lack of it, each has on the other. The sadist has the power to control how the masochist is feeling, and personally, wether this has anything to do with upbrining or not, I find this comforting not to have to make any desicions and to put my complete trust in someone. They decide for me what happens (thus I don't have to take responsibility) and the pain I can describe as being when you're really cold and then the comfort of heating up afterwards. It makes you appreciate when the sadist gives you mercy. I can only assume that from the sadist's point of view, there is a pleasure in being safe and that someone trusts in them, that they have complete control over someone. Stephie

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Posted 01/20/08 - 08:26 PM:	#28
I think most everybody has a non-clinical amount of sexual sadism and masochism. Who isn't intrigued by the kinky thought of adding handcuffs to their sex life? A person can become obsessed over almost any pleasure. Sexual pleasures are especially prone to develop into fetishes, addictions and obsessions. That's probably mostly because of the strength of sexual pleasure and sexual-related psychology. There is no clear line between a healthy habit (such as dieting) and a pathological problem (such as anorexia). -Floyd
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natutita
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Posted 02/19/08 - 05:29 PM:	#29
It is possible if you experience it, I think. Sometimes definitions limit reality. Sometimes it is better to go through certain things to understand them. But the problem you bring about is, if it is possible. It has been answered that, in the view of nowadays physics, it is. I say: it is possible if it isnt contradictory. Maybe there are different kinds of pleasure. I think so. As far as masochism being healthy or not, I agree with Floyd, the line is thin and movable.

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Posted 11/24/08 - 03:40 AM:	#30
JAC wrote: Alright, well that answers my question fairly well, then. I still wonder, however, if you asked someone what they are feeling during event "A", they would not say both pain and pleasure, even if both parts of the brain were being stimulated - or would they? I would think that they would only say one. And I suppose my question would also want to know, if someone poked me with a needle in my finger and the pain part of my brain went off, could I still enjoy the feeling? Even without any stimulation of the "pleasure" portion of the brain? Actually the pleasure portion generates within oneself. Consider Mr. a and Mr. a does something bad to b. b gets angry and beats a. while a is suffering b enjoys that suffering i.e. pleasure is generated. While if a feels that he did something wrong, he also enjoys the suffering because he knows that he repents on his doing. "b" is a sadist and "a" is a masochist. We find this kind of sado-masochist relationship between almighty god and human being in some religion. Specially Christianity, god is a sadist and humans are masochist.

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