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The Possibility of Masochism?

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The Possibility of Masochism?

Moorhuhn
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Posted 11/06/07 - 08:02 AM:	#11
Perhaps you we have to concentrate more upon narcissistic behaviour patterns and the lack of healthy child rearing, both could lead us to a better understanding of the absence of an adults emotional needs. Someone on anther web asked if the behaviour of sadism is a sign of child abuse, my answer was yes I have no doubt it is the sing of serious child abuse. A happy child would not see the need to hit out on another person, on the other hand sadism as I see it is an outcry for emotional needs.
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loui100
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1 of 1 people found this post helpful Posted 12/21/07 - 09:35 AM:	#12
Well, I for one am a masochist, and for the record I may state some facts: a)its clearly innate, I have experienced masochistic tendencies since the very early beginnings b)it is not directly connected to upbringing, I have had a typical upbringing with no pathology whatsoever. c)its in no way connected to self-esteem as some would have it, I am very much satisfied with myself d)I feel that I am actually more aroused by the act of degradation or humiliation rather than the actual pain, pain itself is just a causualty for me Generally speaking, masochism is a peculiar thing which appears to be hidden in the very mechanisms of our brain. As to the exact nature of the phenomena, I am not certain. Its funny that many sexual deviations are actually entirely unrelated to upbringing. I'm both homosexual and masochistic and have had a most typical upbringing. I mean, look at Roussou, he was a masochist and was raised in a very gentle, normal family.

enkidu
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Posted 12/21/07 - 09:51 AM:	#13
loui100 wrote: Well, I for one am a masochist, and for the record I may state some facts: a)its clearly innate, I have experienced masochistic tendencies since the very early beginnings b)it is not directly connected to upbringing, I have had a typical upbringing with no pathology whatsoever. c)its in no way connected to self-esteem as some would have it, I am very much satisfied with myself d)I feel that I am actually more aroused by the act of degradation or humiliation rather than the actual pain, pain itself is just a causualty for me Generally speaking, masochism is a peculiar thing which appears to be hidden in the very mechanisms of our brain. As to the exact nature of the phenomena, I am not certain. Its funny that many sexual deviations are actually entirely unrelated to upbringing. I'm both homosexual and masochistic and have had a most typical upbringing. I mean, look at Roussou, he was a masochist and was raised in a very gentle, normal family. Maybe you should read a bit of Freud, Klein, Lacan,...etc. to realise that there is no such thing as a "typical upbringing with no pathology whatsoever" or a "normal family". And you have no ground to claim that any feature of your personality is "clearly innate", since you have no recollection of the "very early beginnings", besides such a claim goes against all serious researches in psychology of the last 100 years. I know that the political consensus in USA is to consider homosexuality as innate, but it's just as unsubstantiated as God's existence that is another consensus. A political analysis of these consensual ideas may actually relate both in an interesting way.
Tight toy night, streets were so bright. The world looked so thin and between my bones and skin there stood another person who was a little surprised to be face to face with a world so alive. I fell. (Tom Verlaine)

loui100
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Posted 12/21/07 - 05:25 PM:	#14
Well, obviously you go ahead of matters, you say that masochism is part of my personality which of course it may or may not be. I know that personality isn't innate. What I suggest is that masochism is as innate as homosexuality, why can't it be? Honestly, I can't tell for certain, but I never did exhibit any self-deprecatory symptoms, was a rather jolly child as far as I remember. Why should I be self-sadistic? And for that matter, why should I find pleasure in masochism now, when I can firmly state that I am very much confident with my person? Sorry, but it just doesn't fit in, at least as far as my case is concerned. An argument I could use to support the claim that masochism is innate is that most of all masochism arouses sexual pleasure in us. Now, I can understand that a human with low self-confidence can want to punish himself but there isn't any sexual pleasure or desire in such a case. The fact that pain inflicts any kind of sexual pleasure displays the very inherent nature of the phenomena. Sexuality is a very delicate thing in our brain and it doesn't just change so easily because of our mood swings.

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Posted 12/21/07 - 06:08 PM:	#15
I classify sexual masochism as a fetish, and I see fetishes as mostly a psychological result of environmental factors. -Floyd
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enkidu
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Posted 12/21/07 - 06:16 PM:	#16
As said earlier, read a bit of psychology. I am not here to educate you, the forum does not provide a suitable format for that, I can only indicate you a few points and references that makes your current ideas on this matter inconsistent with the current advancement of knowledge. It is then up to you to go to these references and consult them, if you feel the need to; if you are very fine with your present views, you don't have to. Now, according to modern ideas of psychology, homosexuality is not innate, at the earliest it develops in the womb of the mother, by an exposure to various hormones, and in many cases, it will develop from the early stages of infancy, where the first sexual activities take place; actually, according to current conceptions, the first five years of life are intensely sexual, and are paramount in deciding of one's sexual orientation, it has nothing to do with some traumatic experiences, homosexuality is just as normal as heterosexuality, for Freud, we are all potentially bisexual (which is somewhat corroborated by other mammals'behaviour). Masochism and Sadism are not strictly opposed either, masochism is not, as you wrote, self-sadism, there is no parallelism between the two, and here again, both are not exclusive, they likely are potentialities for any person, each will just be inclined towards one or the other to different extent from his personal experience of the first 5 years where he is building his unconscious. None of this behaviour is abnormal, some are more or less tolerated by western societies, under the influence of religions, even something like paedophilia, which is nowadays submitted to a strict condemnation of society, has in some other been tolerated (see the Greek and Roman Antiquity, read the Satyricon). The psychological suffering of people having what you call "deviations" is solely due to the stigma society puts on them, it has nothing to do with their own sexual orientation, with which they would live a perfectly happy and "normal" life, if society let them live. Edited by enkidu on 12/21/07 - 06:48 PM
Tight toy night, streets were so bright. The world looked so thin and between my bones and skin there stood another person who was a little surprised to be face to face with a world so alive. I fell. (Tom Verlaine)

loui100
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Posted 12/22/07 - 03:28 AM:	#17
Well, I agree that masochism isn't a case of self-sadism. That is what I was most of all opposing. As to whether or not innate one could dispute but it certainly develops along with our sexuality. And I was very well aware of both Freud's view as well as the theories on homosexuality. Actually, by innate I mean this possibility too. Although I still believe that sexuality is entirely innate, in so far as the individual is already built with specific reactions coded for specific sex pheronomones. What remains is that the individual associates certain anatonmy, persons etc. with those specific sex pheromones. So the 5 years infancy is merely the extension of the innate sexuality in my opinion. On a sidenote, homosexuality isn't merely negative due to social stigmas. Its just plain impractical. For instance, I'm madly in love with a certain man lately and he is heterosexual, now that even tolerance can't fix. So long as homosexuality remains in the 10% or something of the popullation, the homosexuals have at least the disadvantage of having to worry about the sexuality of their beloved.

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1 of 1 people found this post helpful Posted 12/22/07 - 10:29 PM:	#18
I always thought that the reason a masochist finds it pleasurable is because he is able to identify with the "inflictor" (sadist). With regards to erotogenic masochism, my interpretation of Freud is that masochism is sadism (instinct of destruction)-inverted, as secondary masochism (although primary masochism is a "leftover" destruction instinct, itself). Part of the death instinct (a.k.a. instinct of destruction, instinct of mastery, or will to power) is initially fused with sexual function (primal sadism) and is directed outwards, but another part remains libidinally bound to the organism. According to Freud, the remaining part is the true (primary) erotogenic masochism (which makes itself an object). From here, most secondary masochisms originate. The way I see it, by enjoying inflicting the pain (even if it's on oneself) a person would not be violating the pleasure principle of id.
There is time to laugh and there is time not to laugh, and this is not one of them. - Insp. Clouseau. From the moment absurdity is recognized, it becomes a passion, the most harrowing of all. But whether or not one can live with one's passions, whether or not one can accept their law, which is to burn the heart they simultaneously exalt--that is the whole question. ï¿½ Camus.

Moorhuhn
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Posted 01/01/08 - 09:45 AM:	#19
Just to remember, sadism has not always a physical explanation , I have experienced someone who took pleasure by causing emotional harm on me and it was very hard not ending up on his level. Some time ago he asked me then, why must you always be better than me, well, I thought about it. Why can't he simply turning the question around and asking him self, why do I have to be so much worst then her? I think that is the main problem of ever sadist, he can’t find a logical reason for why being a good person because there are some who deny the terminology of good and bad? Edited by Moorhuhn on 01/01/08 - 09:57 AM
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jaoman
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Posted 01/02/08 - 08:30 AM:	#20
My apologies for the long post everyone. I would have mercy usually, but this is a loaded issue and there is much here to untangle. Besides, I'm a self confessed sadist. By far the most common error made on this forum is the failure to distinguish the general from the specific. This thread seems to be suffering from this malady quite a bit. In the Platonic sense, as an idea, sadism is the partaking of joy in inflicting suffering on another. Masochism is a little more complex. As the OP pointed out, taking pleasure in your own suffering is a contradiction in terms. Properly, it would be best to say that masochism refers to the association of pleasure with having suffering. That's a bit different, as I will explain lower. That said, what I've just described are concepts. Their actualization in people is a whole other matter entirely. The fact is that people are inordinately complex. The same thing can manifest in a hundred different ways. We can see this best if we trace the origin of these impulses. While inclinations of manifestation are influenced in development, the instincts underlying sadism and masochism are already inside us. In the case of sadism, we find ourselves with one of the most natural phenomenon in life: the fight for survival. Fundamentally, nature is cruel. Species fight for resources. Those that confound their opponents are rewarded by nature. In this paradigm it is advantageous for a species to develop the will to power. The sadist takes joy in this supremacy. He is, in fact, the soldier on the battlefield. The problem is that in the context of modern culture he has lost the battlefield. So, he (or she for that matter) airs out those urges as best as the culture allows. If we see the sadistic instinct in this light, as the desire to impose supremacy as it manifests in modern culture, then we can quickly provide a spectrum of occurrences. At the far end, there is the sadist everyone dreads: the murderer, rapist, torturer. This person cannot balance his instinct with the restraints of society and lashes out. Then we have more subtle expressions, still flowing out of the extreme end: the emotional sadist. This one learns to attack other peoples emotions, getting off by beating down their psyche. This is one end of the extreme. On the other, we have the much more productive and common sadist: the sportsman. This individual competes against others in his field. At this end, we also find men competing for the favors of women (a natural procedure of the species). Philosophers are also here. Debates are a sadistic activity of a sort. The thrill of the intellectual challenge is fueled by the thrill of meeting it. And so on. A great deal of human activity is found in this range, all of it representing different expressions of the same instinct. Wherein 'sadism' comes into play is usually in the physical manifestation of this phenomenon, closer to the extreme unstable end. The torturer and murder are here certainly in this range, but they are not the only options, and that is what I'm trying to hammer across. The BDSM top is also to be found in this category. However, strictly speaking, this individual is generally no more harmful than the competitive businessmen – less even. Rather, in him, we see the benign expression of a rather nasty urge. The sadist is not an evil person, but some sadists have found evil expressions of their instinct. Masochism, I think, is a newer instinct. Whereas, the urge to sadism can be traced to the origins of diverse life, masochism evolves from group activity. Packs, tribes, that of thing. In these institutions, often survival of the whole is achieved by supporting a strong protector. We find ourselves awed by powerful and admirable people. The act of masochism, on the one hand, is an act of submission. By being hurt by the top, the bottom's perception of the tops dominance is reinforced, making him or her feel secure (This is something very often describe in the BDSM community). Furthermore, there is one other component. Pain is an essential element of the human condition. Femininity especially is closely tied to pain. The first sexual act, PMS, pregnancy – the enormous honor of baring life comes with a rather thick paddle. To add to this, we also have the runners high and other forms of exertion. The discipline to overcome pain has many uses in the survival of the species. It is not self sadism, though it does have some similar origins. To find pleasure in pain, in such a world, becomes a not too unfavorable evolution – so long as it doesn't interfere with the primary function of pain: warning us of danger. At this point, let me answer the OP. No, a masochist does not feel pleasure and pain at the same time. A masochist feels pain and then associates it immediately with something positive. The two experiences come in sequence. The physical sensation of pain immediately triggers a feeling of euphoria – or a similar positive association. This instinct is subject to a range of manifestations as well. From the self-destructive to merely the guy who pushes himself harder. Somewhere in this range is the most typical type of masochism that people refer to, the BDSM masochist (or otherwise sexual expression that scares the stiffness out of vanilla people). This person uses the practice to stimulate the pleasure instinctively bread into the submissive and self destructive behavior. As with sadism, the instinct itself is benign. Only it's manifestations in people can be judged, and there is no one type that can be used as a model for everyone. Edited by jaoman on 01/02/08 - 08:37 AM
"With no relation to class or social background, whether it suits them or not, people yearn for a dream. Sustained by a dream, hurt by a dream, revived by a dream, killed by a dream. And even after being abandoned by a dream, it continues to smolder from the bottom of one's heart... probably until the verge of death. A man should envision such a lifetime once. A life spent as a martyr to the god named "dream." - Kentaro Miura

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