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The intrinsic worth of persons and our duty to society
Libertarians are selfish b******s

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The intrinsic worth of persons and our duty to society

Glypt
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0 of 2 people found this post helpful Posted 04/04/08 - 01:11 PM: Subject: The intrinsic worth of persons and our duty to society	#1
A person is the product of the society of which they are a part: A significant aspect of associations between individuals is language. Language enables thought...desire and belief. Our beliefs and desires underwrites our behaviour and experiences...the building blocks of our personal history that constitutes our character. Individual persons would not survive as human beings without the civilising effects of human society. A clear interdependent relation exists between private psychologies and public discourse. Given the above, it seems an unassailable truth that individuals need society and society needs individuals. When we are born we do not earn our innate talents or deserve our short comings. The circumstances of our birth is a matter of happenstance. Some of us get a flying start by being born into wealthy families or rich countries others are born into a world where insecurity, pain and suffering is the norm. With this in mind can someone explain to me why there are still people struggling to gain the basic needs of life while so many of us feel justified in buying a second or third car, a second home, private education for our children, etc... There are times when the libertarian right wing view truly disgust me. When the consumer waste appals me. Am I being too extreme in this feeling?

cortes
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Posted 04/04/08 - 02:19 PM:	#2
Glypt wrote: A person is the product of the society of which they are a part:...When we are born we do not earn our innate talents or deserve our short comings. The circumstances of our birth is a matter of happenstance. In another thread I posed the question: What did you ever do to deserve being born? I take it from this new thread that we are agreed that your existence is unjust, that every breath you take is an act of unfair opportunism. Now it seems you wish to attribute your existence to "society" as if by enlarging the group you might find the source. But this is just another mirage. Biologically, your existence is owed to your parents and, indirectly, your ancestors. In particular, the bums on welfare had nothing to do with it. Glypt wrote: Given the above, it seems an unassailable truth that individuals need society and society needs individuals. The value of society (need is a bit of an exageration) stands apart from your claim that "we are a product of society". The value of society is a sufficient explanation of our desire to be a part of society and to bend our desires to fit in as necessary. Glypt wrote: Some of us get a flying start by being born into wealthy families or rich countries others are born into a world where insecurity, pain and suffering is the norm. Indeed. This is so because of what our respective ancestors bequethed to us. Let's all pause to thank them properly. Glypt wrote: With this in mind can someone explain to me why there are still people struggling to gain the basic needs of life while so many of us feel justified in buying a second or third car, a second home, private education for our children, etc... Well, I dont need to "feel justified" to buy luxury goods, private education, etc. But in answer to your question some of us had ancestors who invented science and capitalism and bult cities and ships and railroads. Others had ancestors who wallowed in self-pity and fought each other for spoils. Glypt wrote: There are times when the libertarian right wing view truly disgust me. When the consumer waste appals me. Am I being too extreme in this feeling? Those are your feelings. You'll have to find a way to deal with them. But if I see you on the street I'll toss you a quarter. In the mean time, I'll continue to celebrate my good fortune and to exploit the opportunities that life offers me. I wouldn't want to let that good fortune go to waste. Thank God life is so unfair.
_____________________ Copyright (c) 2008 Hernan Cortes, Sociedad de los Conquistadores. cortes@conquistador.org http://www.conquistador.org

jaoman
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Posted 04/04/08 - 02:58 PM:	#3
Glypt wrote: With this in mind can someone explain to me why there are still people struggling to gain the basic needs of life while so many of us feel justified in buying a second or third car, a second home, private education for our children, etc... You've actually answered your own question: it is so deemed by the social context. When you bring it down to its core, I think one can say it is one group of genes badly out competing another and enjoying it. cortes wrote: I take it from this new thread that we are agreed that your existence is unjust, that every breath you take is an act of unfair opportunism. You can't be serious. Life is it's own scale. Death pays all debts. Therefore, your balance is already covered. Nothing unjust or unfair about it.
_____________________ "With no relation to class or social background, whether it suits them or not, people yearn for a dream. Sustained by a dream, hurt by a dream, revived by a dream, killed by a dream. And even after being abandoned by a dream, it continues to smolder from the bottom of one's heart... probably until the verge of death. A man should envision such a lifetime once. A life spent as a martyr to the god named "dream." - Kentaro Miura

cortes
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Posted 04/04/08 - 04:05 PM:	#4
jaoman wrote: Life is it's own scale. Death pays all debts. Therefore, your balance is already covered. Nothing unjust or unfair about it. Nonsense. Even a life of an hour is unearned and death does not negate that hour. (Though death will negate any potential future unearned life so the sooner you commit suicide, the less injustice in the world.)
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jaoman
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Posted 04/04/08 - 04:47 PM:	#5
The more you live, the more you loose in death. The hour is only unearned at time. And what makes you think even that the hour does not pay for itself. Employed as we are by existence, surely it is something we ought to be paid for and not the other way around.
_____________________ "With no relation to class or social background, whether it suits them or not, people yearn for a dream. Sustained by a dream, hurt by a dream, revived by a dream, killed by a dream. And even after being abandoned by a dream, it continues to smolder from the bottom of one's heart... probably until the verge of death. A man should envision such a lifetime once. A life spent as a martyr to the god named "dream." - Kentaro Miura

cortes
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Posted 04/04/08 - 05:18 PM:	#6
jaoman wrote: The more you live, the more you loose in death. The hour is only unearned at time. And what makes you think even that the hour does not pay for itself. Employed as we are by existence, surely it is something we ought to be paid for and not the other way around. Death is the same whether of a life of an hour or a century. Setting aside what lies beyond death, it clearly is not proportional in any way to the life lived. As for the hypothesis that life is a burden or otherwise undesirable or even net neutral, obviously some come to this conclusion and end or waste their life. The vast majority of human beings make every effort to extend their life and to flourish through it. It's pretty obvious that we all enjoy an unjust, unfair, opportunisitic life.
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jaoman
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Posted 04/04/08 - 05:58 PM:	#7
cortes wrote: As for the hypothesis that life is a burden or otherwise undesirable or even net neutral, obviously some come to this conclusion and end or waste their life. The vast majority of human beings make every effort to extend their life and to flourish through it. I am to conclude then that the underlying premise of your conclusion is that anything that is enjoyable must be paid for. Life is enjoyable and no obvious payment is made. Therefore, we are ripping off for life. Nice, illogical but nevertheless... There is no reason why I cannot be employed by existence to live my life and not enjoy the work if it is a good life. After all, I didn't ask to be born. I was forced into this without consultation. The implication that I owe even more after that, that's worse then slave labor. Now that's unjust!
_____________________ "With no relation to class or social background, whether it suits them or not, people yearn for a dream. Sustained by a dream, hurt by a dream, revived by a dream, killed by a dream. And even after being abandoned by a dream, it continues to smolder from the bottom of one's heart... probably until the verge of death. A man should envision such a lifetime once. A life spent as a martyr to the god named "dream." - Kentaro Miura

cortes
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Posted 04/04/08 - 06:13 PM:	#8
jaoman wrote: I am to conclude then that the underlying premise of your conclusion is that anything that is enjoyable must be paid for. Life is enjoyable and no obvious payment is made. Therefore, we are ripping off for life. Nice, illogical but nevertheless... You should not conclude the former because it would be, as you say, illogical. Nobody earns their birth. Nothing you do in your life can repay it. Your very existence is unfair and unjust. Every breath you draw is an act of pure opportunism. But I am not of the opinion that opportunism is immoral. So I am quite content to exploit the opportunities of life in all their wonderful injustices. jaoman wrote: There is no reason why I cannot be employed by existence to live my life and not enjoy the work if it is a good life. After all, I didn't ask to be born. I was forced into this without consultation. The implication that I owe even more after that, that's worse then slave labor. Now that's unjust! We've already established that life is unjust but so what? That's right, you didn't ask for the gift of life. But as I said before, you can always return it. Now I have nowhere claimed that the gift of life creates a debt. That is Glypt's position. He wants to invent a "duty to society". (I pointed out that society did not beget you and you correctly point out that you did not agree to conditions of debt in accepting the gift of life.) My position is that life is a gift to be appreciated, an opportunity to be exploited. That our very existence owes to the injustice of the universe. Thank God life is so unfair.
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cortes
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Posted 04/04/08 - 06:18 PM:	#9
BTW, if you really want to understand my position, you can read my maxims here: http://www.conquistador.org/index?name=way The first paragraphs are dead on pertinent though they were written years ago.
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Glypt
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Posted 04/06/08 - 10:20 AM:	#10
cortes wrote: In another thread I posed the question: What did you ever do to deserve being born? I take it from this new thread that we are agreed that your existence is unjust, that every breath you take is an act of unfair opportunism. Well, I'll give you this you are consistent in your lack of rationality or logical rigour. cortes wrote: Now it seems you wish to attribute Not a wish it is matter of fact cortes wrote: your existence to "society" as if by enlarging the group you might find the source. But this is just another mirage. Biologically, your existence is owed to your parents and, indirectly, your ancestors. In particular, the bums on welfare had nothing to do with it. You are finally getting it ...well done! Having parents IS THE START OF THE FIRST SOCIETY! And biology allows you to grow a neuronal network ...however without other networks with which to engage ...an enlarged society of other human beings... neither my parents nor you would be able to survive psychologically as humans (as distinct from human organisms), the following would not exist...no language, no numeracy, no trade, NO PROFITS!, no intellect to create art, to develop science, to find cures for disease. etc. etc etc Any wealth that Libertarian ethics (well there's a contradiction in terms) insist on keeping to themselves would be impossible without a civilised society. Every thought, every desire, every belief, everything that there is to believe in ...COMES FROM THE ASSOCIATION OF HUMAN BEINGS AND THE PLANET UPON WHICH THEY LIVE! The individual that does not realise how much their existence is owed to society and to their external environment is as self deluded as a child whose limited understanding of the world permits such ignorance. Ah that is it...I feel I know you Cortes, your lack of insight, your lack of rational faculty, other than your own perspective, paints a vivid picture of a person who has yet to experience reality in full. You are protected by something possibly caring parents...you feel invulnerable and so you do not care about the vulnerability of others. Why should you?...after all there is no way that you could ever need a helping hand...you will never need hospital care... you will never lose your fortune, after all mummy and daddy will take care of that...you will never be in need of food because the land you are forced to live from has been contaminated by global polution or a distructive war generated by another country etc etc. If you ever did leave that cocoon of yours and had to function in the real world you would realise that all people have an intrinsic worth and a dignity worth respecting. Caring for others is a defining aspect of being human. One day you may need taking care of yourself and you will realise that entails a society from which to make business associations that are reciprocal. You will eventually learn that we survive as a species because we need each other and because we perceive the independent moral status of the individual. Not a political opinion but a matter of logical necessity... no society ...no Cortes.

cortes
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Posted 04/06/08 - 10:50 AM:	#11
Glypt wrote: cortes wrote: In another thread I posed the question: What did you ever do to deserve being born? I take it from this new thread that we are agreed that your existence is unjust, that every breath you take is an act of unfair opportunism. Well, I'll give you this you are consistent in your lack of rationality or logical rigour. It is most telling that you don't refute my argument but merely reach for sophmoric insults. I'll keep throwing that back in your face until you deal with it. Glypt wrote: Any wealth that Libertarian ethics (well there's a contradiction in terms) insist on keeping to themselves would be impossible without a civilised society. Every thought, every desire, every belief, everything that there is to believe in ...COMES FROM THE ASSOCIATION OF HUMAN BEINGS AND THE PLANET UPON WHICH THEY LIVE! The individual that does not realise how much their existence is owed to society and to their external environment is as self deluded as a child whose limited understanding of the world permits such ignorance. You are confused as ever. Gifts do not create debt much less slavery. Your belief in a debt to society is unreal. The plain fact is that whatever I have, wherever it came from, is mine to do with as I please. Glypt wrote: You are protected by something possibly caring parents...you feel invulnerable and so you do not care about the vulnerability of others. Why should you?...after all there is no way that you could ever need a helping hand...you will never need hospital care... you will never lose your fortune, after all mummy and daddy will take care of that...you will never be in need of food because the land you are forced to live from has been contaminated by global polution or a distructive war generated by another country etc etc. I am not a slave but a free man, a giant standing on the shoulders of giants. And that gauls you no end. You seem to think that you are shaming me but you only embolden me. While I have my own reasons to prefer living my life as a free man, the fact that it so upsets you is icing on the cake. Glypt wrote: If you ever did leave that cocoon of yours and had to function in the real world you would realise that all people have an intrinsic worth and a dignity worth respecting. Caring for others is a defining aspect of being human. One day you may need taking care of yourself and you will realise that entails a society from which to make business associations that are reciprocal. You will eventually learn that we survive as a species because we need each other and because we perceive the independent moral status of the individual. Not a political opinion but a matter of logical necessity... no society ...no Cortes. When I need food, I go to the grocery store. When I need health care, I go to the doctor's office. When I am moved to care for others I do so freely. I am a happy member of society giving and taking as my needs match opportunities to fulfill them. But I have no need of your cult of debt and I would certainly not want my children joining that cult. Thank God life is so unfair.
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Glypt
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Posted 04/06/08 - 11:39 AM:	#12
cortes wrote: ...you don't refute my argument but merely reach for sophmoric insults. Anyone who can read will know that the above describes your style and not mine. All of my points and the other contibutors on these forums are subsequently argued 99% of your postings are mere 'opinion' that stand in a logical vacuum and for which the only justification you provide entails an empoverished form of methodological individualism. cortes wrote: ...You are confused as ever. Gifts do not create debt much less slavery. Your belief in a debt to society is unreal. The plain fact is that whatever I have, wherever it came from, is mine to do with as I please. Society and individuals are mutually interdependent...that is not in doubt. cortes wrote: ...I am not a slave but a free man, a giant standing on the shoulders of giants. cortes wrote: ...And that gauls you no end. I do not recognise such emotion in myself in that regards. However... You are not free: to breath without oxygen. You cannot eat without food. You cannot trade without an economic community. You cannot think or communicate without language. You cannot have this discussion without me. You cannot exist unless you have some sociological contingency that defines you... that is what gauls YOU. .[/quote] cortes wrote: ...You seem to think that you are shaming me but you only embolden me. While I have my own reasons to prefer living my life as a free man, the fact that it so upsets you is icing on the cake. You shame yourself by your reticence to use reason ...it is self evident that none of your premises follow, they stand to contradict . Your words do not lead to a rational conclusion. You cannot depend upon something while being totally free at the same time. You cannot say that you stand on shoulders and then say you are not a product of society ...You are not free as proven by the words you speak, which come from society.. And BTW I am not upset. cortes wrote: ...When I need food, I go to the grocery store. When I need health care, I go to the doctor's office. When I am moved to care for others I do so freely. I am a happy member of society giving and taking as my needs match opportunities to fulfill them. . Well you now seem to agree with me. !! no grocery store ...no food; no doctor's office ...no health care; NO SOCIETY ... no place to give or take. cortes wrote: ...But I have no need of your cult of debt and I would certainly not want my children joining that cult. . There is no talk of debt, but of respect, duty, and responsibility...all adult intuitions.

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Posted 04/06/08 - 12:48 PM:	#13
Glypt When I saw the thread title comment, I became curious enough to read your opening post. After reading it, I saw nothing justifying your scathing view of libertarians. I think you are making one of the common mistakes people make in believing that advocates of individualism are anti society. I strongly recommend that you read Hayek's essay "Individualism, True and False" in which he sets out to destroy the various myths and misconceptions people have about individualism and clarifies it's meaning.

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Posted 04/06/08 - 05:16 PM:	#14
Glypt wrote: ... When we are born we do not earn our innate talents or deserve our short comings. The circumstances of our birth is a matter of happenstance. Some of us get a flying start by being born into wealthy families or rich countries others are born into a world where insecurity, pain and suffering is the norm. With this in mind can someone explain to me why there are still people struggling to gain the basic needs of life while so many of us feel justified in buying a second or third car, a second home, private education for our children, etc... There are times when the libertarian right wing view truly disgust me. When the consumer waste appals me. Am I being too extreme in this feeling? It is easy to explain this. When children are socialized into the memes of certain social grouping they are led to believe that anyone outside the group is of no concern to them and expressing concern for those outside the group, especially the less fortunate, will bring calamity upon those with whom they have emotional attachments so they are taught to ignore them, entirely. It is extremely effective emotional blackmail. It is also extremely callous towards others. As Jimmy Carter's ambassador the El Salvador said "It is difficult to talk to these people about human rights when they don't see the campesinos as human beings." This is why some people have estates and townhouses scattered all over while others live on garbage heaps.

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Posted 04/06/08 - 07:41 PM:	#15
Glypt wrote: And BTW I am not upset. I think thao doth protest too much. But not to worry, a few years of therapy is all you need to overcome your fear of free men. Glypt wrote: You cannot say that you stand on shoulders and then say you are not a product of society ...You are not free as proven by the words you speak, which come from society.. The very fact that you choose to argue with me proves you do not believe your own words. Glypt wrote: Well you now seem to agree with me. !! no grocery store ...no food; no doctor's office ...no health care; NO SOCIETY ... no place to give or take....There is no talk of debt, but of respect, duty, and responsibility...all adult intuitions. I don't need to respect "society" in order to walk into a grocery store to buy a loaf of bread. I don't have a duty to anyone outside the transation. I don't have a responsitiblity to "society" when I walk out the door with it. These are all figments of your fetid imagination. Edited by cortes on 04/06/08 - 08:58 PM
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Posted 04/06/08 - 07:52 PM:	#16
unrealist42 wrote: When children are socialized into the memes of certain social grouping they are led to believe that anyone outside the group is of no concern to them and expressing concern for those outside the group, especially the less fortunate, will bring calamity upon those with whom they have emotional attachments so they are taught to ignore them, entirely. It is extremely effective emotional blackmail. It is also extremely callous towards others. There is a much simpler explanation: There are some people who have and some people who have less. All of these people have more than they deserve because nobody earned their birth or the circumstances thereof. Then there are those, like Glypt, who are what we call "agressive panhandlers". These are people who think that the world owes them something or that one group owes another group merely for having more and they are attracted to those who have like robbers to banks. My concern for those less fortunate his my own business. It is not your business or Glypt's business. When it comes to charity, I do not let my left hand know what my right hand is doing. I have said nothing here nor anywhere else to disparage voluntary acts of charity, love, and kindness. But when I encounter agressive panhandlers like Glypt my inclination is to go Bernie Goetz on them.
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Glypt
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Posted 04/07/08 - 01:26 AM:	#17
Fried Egg wrote: Glypt When I saw the thread title comment, I became curious enough to read your opening post. After reading it, I saw nothing justifying your scathing view of libertarians. I think you are making one of the common mistakes people make in believing that advocates of individualism are anti society. Thank you for your measured reply I do not believe libertarians are anti-society. And I too advocate the individual. How can I not?...society consists of individuals, hence my mention of the intrinsic value of the person/ viz theindividual. The problem that contemporary philosophy identifies with libertarianism is that it is incoherent. The methodological individualsim upon which it relies cannot support close scrutiny in the light of what we know about how personal identity comes about. Fried Egg wrote: I think you are making one of the common mistakes people make in believing that advocates of individualism are anti society. Libertarians are not anti- society, how can they be? they cannot survive without it... it is that they do not properly understand the interdependent relationship that optains between the interests of the person and the interests of the community, for if they did they would live up to their social responsiblities beyond the autopoeitic forces of the market place. Libertarians take from the market but complain about playing their part in sustaining the social infrastructures upon which the financial markets depend. Fried Egg wrote: I strongly recommend that you read Hayek's essay "Individualism, True and False" in which he sets out to destroy the various myths and misconceptions people have about individualism and clarifies it's meaning. There is a distinction between individualism/liberalism and libertarianism. Liberalism and libertarianism is often confused because of their similar sounding names but they are different things. I subscribe to the liberal notion of individualism and a discursive democracy not the libertarian model. Hayek was a not a libertarian. He supported a classical liberalism (the freedom of the individual) and he repudiated being labelled a Conservative. He was not a libertarian. Although he criticised certain socialist values I respect many of his liberal views. Perhaps you could quote from the important parts of the essay, if you don't mind. Thanks again for your message. Edited by Glypt on 04/07/08 - 02:13 AM

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Posted 04/07/08 - 01:59 AM:	#18
cortes wrote: I think thao doth protest too much. But not to worry, a few years of therapy is all you need to overcome your fear of free men. Thats a contradiction in terms cortes wrote: The very fact that you choose to argue with me proves you do not believe your own words. Not at all, I find you amusing, deluded, but funny also. Well done. cortes wrote: I don't need to respect "society" in order to walk into a grocery store to buy a loaf of bread. I don't have a duty to anyone outside the transation. I don't have a responsitiblity to "society" when I walk out the door with it. As I said before...you equivocate meaning, an impoverished philosophical method. Try reason instead: Respect to the individual entails respect for society given that society is constituted by individuals without whom you could not survive.

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Posted 04/07/08 - 02:07 AM:	#19
unrealist42 wrote: It is easy to explain this. When children are socialized into the memes of certain social grouping they are led to believe that anyone outside the group is of no concern to them and expressing concern for those outside the group, especially the less fortunate, will bring calamity upon those with whom they have emotional attachments so they are taught to ignore them, entirely. It is extremely effective emotional blackmail. It is also extremely callous towards others. As Jimmy Carter's ambassador the El Salvador said "It is difficult to talk to these people about human rights when they don't see the campesinos as human beings." This is why some people have estates and townhouses scattered all over while others live on garbage heaps. Your point is very well made

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Posted 04/07/08 - 06:22 AM:	#20
Glypt wrote: Individual persons would not survive as human beings without the civilising effects of human society. A clear interdependent relation exists between private psychologies and public discourse. This is generally accepted as true; people require other people to survive; infact, the Romans created a physical test where they kept babies free from language (related to the other point above), no nurse, no person, no family member was allowed to speak - and it was done to see what the outcome would yield. The babies all died. Although one went around saying "What a fucker, I want to speak!" When we are born we do not earn our innate talents or deserve our short comings. The circumstances of our birth is a matter of happenstance. Some of us get a flying start by being born into wealthy families or rich countries others are born into a world where insecurity, pain and suffering is the norm. Again, I would say you are touching on a "truism" here. Its called "The Great Contingency" - and refers to all aspects of our Individual lives being the result of luck, of circumstance, of birth. This is certainly not to deny the affects of "character" of "hard work" etc., but it seems there will always be a cause (ad infinitum)- so to say someone's act or belief is Contingent on X then it is to take the act into the domain of Contingency. People understand this, that's why humility exists. With this in mind can someone explain to me why there are still people struggling to gain the basic needs of life while so many of us feel justified in buying a second or third car, a second home, private education for our children, etc... My answer is that people must want to give, people must want to feel charity - and this feeling, I like to think, comes from understanding 'contingency.' I don't think you can force individuals to give, people must have the desire. I don't think forcing economic theory works either, that's putting the cart before the horse, we could have an egalitarian system, but it wouldn't fly right with right wing folk.
_____________________ Develop an interest in life as you see it; the people, things, literature, music - the world is so rich, simply throbbing with rich treasures, beautiful souls and interesting people. Forget yourself. - The aim of life is to live, and to live means to be aware, joyously, drunkenly, serenely, divinely aware. -Henry Miller

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Posted 04/07/08 - 06:43 AM:	#21
Glypt wrote: ...you equivocate meaning This is a most amusing complaint given the grand equivocation inherent in your claims herein. You equivocate a grand mass of "society" across time and space. Most people make rational differentiations between parents and panhadlers, between grocery store cashiers and tax collectors. Instead of talking about "society" try a little more specificity. You might manage to learn something valueable in the process.
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Posted 04/07/08 - 06:48 AM:	#22
litkey wrote: I don't think you can force individuals to give, people must have the desire. I don't think forcing economic theory works either, that's putting the cart before the horse, we could have an egalitarian system, but it wouldn't fly right with right wing folk. Precisely. Because people have choice and not everyone desires egalitariansm. In fact, it turns out that very few people do.
_____________________ Copyright (c) 2008 Hernan Cortes, Sociedad de los Conquistadores. cortes@conquistador.org http://www.conquistador.org

litkey
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Posted 04/07/08 - 07:00 AM:	#23
cortes wrote: Precisely. Because people have choice and not everyone desires egalitariansm. In fact, it turns out that very few people do. Not really. Your logic is once again retarded, and belongs to the 'beginners logic for mongoloids' What you need to see is that 'choice' can be manufactured or "engineered" (see Chomsky and "manufacture of consent") - for example, you think you have choice, free-will, and the ability to choose a desire; but that is the donkey riding the cat, you are the desire, the context, the environment - you are relating all the time, and it could simply be repeated propaganda that has been causal in your "choice" - and this propaganda need not be explicit.
_____________________ Develop an interest in life as you see it; the people, things, literature, music - the world is so rich, simply throbbing with rich treasures, beautiful souls and interesting people. Forget yourself. - The aim of life is to live, and to live means to be aware, joyously, drunkenly, serenely, divinely aware. -Henry Miller

cortes
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Posted 04/07/08 - 07:58 AM:	#24
litkey wrote: What you need to see is that 'choice' can be manufactured or "engineered" (see Chomsky and "manufacture of consent") - for example, you think you have choice, free-will, and the ability to choose a desire; but that is the donkey riding the cat, you are the desire, the context, the environment - you are relating all the time, and it could simply be repeated propaganda that has been causal in your "choice" - and this propaganda need not be explicit. If you believe in determinism then you have no cause to complain about my choices. Enough said. Edited by cortes on 04/07/08 - 08:08 AM
_____________________ Copyright (c) 2008 Hernan Cortes, Sociedad de los Conquistadores. cortes@conquistador.org http://www.conquistador.org

keda
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Posted 04/07/08 - 08:18 AM:	#25
The problem with slaves is that they will try to impose slavery on others through their masters. The socialist sin is greed, for he jealously lusts after his neighbour's property.
_____________________ Free Europe Now The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. -Benjamin Franklin If my sons did not want wars, there would be none - Gutle Rothschild It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes - Josef Stalin Sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace - Bob Dylan A prolonged peace favours the predominance of a mere commercial spirit, and with it a debasing self-interest, cowardice, and effeminacy, and tends to degrade the character of the nation. - Immanuel Kant

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