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the importance of thought experiments
for the mind/body problem

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the importance of thought experiments
Monroe
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Posted 05/18/06 - 09:19 AM:
Subject: the importance of thought experiments
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#1
It has become popular among Quine admirers, "naturalists", straight up Dennett fans, and others to denegrate the validity or usefulness of thought experiments altogether in order to attack the standard arguments against materialism. While some critiques of the use of thought experiments might have a lot of wisdom to them, I contend here that the questions involved in the mind/body problem are such that thought experiments are a necessary part of addressing the issue.

Whatever your particular formulation of the mind/body problem, everyone seems to agree that materialism is false if Chalmersian zombies are possible. And no one seriously believes that zombies are actual. So the mind/body problem is not a question of whether there will ever be any actual instances of normally functioning brains without minds, but whether brains make minds necessary. Thus the question itself goes beyond mere empirical facts into questions of possibility and necessity.

Now, it is all too easy to offer something that looks like a logical proof that brains do not imply consciousness. The vocabulary and sentences used to describe consciousness are very different from the terms of physics, chemistry, and neuroscience. We can simply assign truth values to sentences of one vocabulary independently of sentences of the other vocabulary. One of these assignments will thus be a world of zombies-- We assign "true" to the existence of brains as they are described in this world, and "false" to the existence of consciousness.

So in order for there to be any ground for the materialist to stand on, there must be some deeper constraints between the two vocabularies in order to render zombies impossible. But since empirical facts will not have enough bearing on this question of possibility, we must turn to the only thing left: thought experiments, or conceptual analysis.

The task of the materialist is thus to show that our concepts of mind are intimately connected with the concepts in physical science, establishing logical constraints between the vocabularies which preclude zombies and make it that brains imply consciousness.

On the other hand, if we can come up with coherent thought experiments in which consciousness and brain activity do not coincide in the same way they do in this world, then materialism must be mistaken. It seems to me that this has already been done. It is thus the task of the materialist to somehow argue that a fundamental misunderstanding has taken place in these analyses.
Andrew Saunders
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Posted 05/18/06 - 09:38 AM:
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#2
Monroe wrote:
It has become popular among Quine admirers, "naturalists", straight up Dennett fans, and others to denegrate the validity or usefulness of thought experiments altogether in order to attack the standard arguments against materialism. While some critiques of the use of thought experiments might have a lot of wisdom to them, I contend here that the questions involved in the mind/body problem are such that thought experiments are a necessary part of addressing the issue.

Whatever your particular formulation of the mind/body problem, everyone seems to agree that materialism is false if Chalmersian zombies are possible. And no one seriously believes that zombies are actual. So the mind/body problem is not a question of whether there will ever be any actual instances of normally functioning brains without minds, but whether brains make minds necessary. Thus the question itself goes beyond mere empirical facts into questions of possibility and necessity.

Now, it is all too easy to offer something that looks like a logical proof that brains do not imply consciousness. The vocabulary and sentences used to describe consciousness are very different from the terms of physics, chemistry, and neuroscience. We can simply assign truth values to sentences of one vocabulary independently of sentences of the other vocabulary. One of these assignments will thus be a world of zombies-- We assign "true" to the existence of brains as they are described in this world, and "false" to the existence of consciousness.

So in order for there to be any ground for the materialist to stand on, there must be some deeper constraints between the two vocabularies in order to render zombies impossible. But since empirical facts will not have enough bearing on this question of possibility, we must turn to the only thing left: thought experiments, or conceptual analysis.

The task of the materialist is thus to show that our concepts of mind are intimately connected with the concepts in physical science, establishing logical constraints between the vocabularies which preclude zombies and make it that brains imply consciousness.

On the other hand, if we can come up with coherent thought experiments in which consciousness and brain activity do not coincide in the same way they do in this world, then materialism must be mistaken. It seems to me that this has already been done. It is thus the task of the materialist to somehow argue that a fundamental misunderstanding has taken place in these analyses.


"it is thus the task of the materialist to somehow argue that a fundamental misunderstanding has taken place in these analyses" that has also been done already.


Monroe
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Posted 05/18/06 - 10:00 AM:
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#3
Andrew Saunders wrote:
"it is thus the task of the materialist to somehow argue that a fundamental misunderstanding has taken place in these analyses" that has also been done already.
All of such arguments that I'm aware of proceed by merely raising doubts about the technique of thought experiment itself. See for example Tye 95, in which all he says "oh but conceivability doesn't imply possibility". People have also raised doubts about our ability to discern conceivability, that somehow the thought experiments described didn't even get done-- a very mysterious argument to me. In light of what I've said above, the materialist must attack those analyses on other grounds. The only thing they can do is provide other thought experiments which establish conclusions which render zombie experiments incoherent. This they haven't done.
Death Monkey
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Posted 05/18/06 - 10:38 AM:
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I don't recall ever seeing Dennett or any of his supporters claiming that thought experiments are not useful or relevant. What I have seen is people questioning the premises and/or conclusions of the thought experiment based arguments which people present against identity theory. Typically these thought experiment based arguments end up being premised on claims which contradict identity theory implicitly, in which case such arguments are circular. This is not even a problem with the thought experiment, but rather with the use to which it is being put.

As to your example:

Now, it is all too easy to offer something that looks like a logical proof that brains do not imply consciousness. The vocabulary and sentences used to describe consciousness are very different from the terms of physics, chemistry, and neuroscience. We can simply assign truth values to sentences of one vocabulary independently of sentences of the other vocabulary. One of these assignments will thus be a world of zombies-- We assign "true" to the existence of brains as they are described in this world, and "false" to the existence of consciousness.

While this may superficially "look" like a logical proof that brains do not imply consciousness, it is not one. In fact, this is simply an example of an argument whose conclusions do not follow from its premises. It does not logically follow from the fact that we use different vocabularies to describe consciousness and brain activity, that the zombie world you have constructed above will not be logically self-contradictory. Frankly, I am puzzled as to why you would think that it does.

So in order for there to be any ground for the materialist to stand on, there must be some deeper constraints between the two vocabularies in order to render zombies impossible.

Not between the vocabularies, but between the actual nature of consciousness and brains. There is absolutely no reason why limitations of our current vocabularies should have any bearing on the nature of consciousness. The vocabularies we use just represent (some) of what we currently know about these things, and in the case of consciousness, do not even really represent it very accurately.

But since empirical facts will not have enough bearing on this question of possibility, we must turn to the only thing left: thought experiments, or conceptual analysis.

How is that going to help?

The question is whether or not consciousness is logically implied by brain activity, right? In order to determine this, we first need to know a lot more about brain activity. That requires empirical study. Right now we simply do not know enough about the brain to be able to analytically determine whether consciousness is implied by it or not. So no amount of conceptual analysis is going to answer the question. We need more empirical facts first.

The task of the materialist is thus to show that our concepts of mind are intimately connected with the concepts in physical science, establishing logical constraints between the vocabularies which preclude zombies and make it that brains imply consciousness.

As Andrew said, this is already being done. You make it sound as though no progress has been made towards understanding the relationship between brain and mind. This is completely ridiculous. There are connections between the vocabularies. The presence of these connections is what forces dualists to go on about "neural correlates" of consciousness. If there was no connection between the vocabularies, as you claim, then there would be no "neural correlates" of consciousness, because there would be no correlations. An understanding of the correlations between consciousness and brain activity provides the connection between the two vocabularies.


DM


Pseudoscience makes Baby Jesus cry.
HamishMacSporran
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Posted 05/18/06 - 11:20 AM:
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#5
Death Monkey wrote:

The question is whether or not consciousness is logically implied by brain activity, right? In order to determine this, we first need to know a lot more about brain activity. That requires empirical study. Right now we simply do not know enough about the brain to be able to analytically determine whether consciousness is implied by it or not. So no amount of conceptual analysis is going to answer the question. We need more empirical facts first.


Are saying that given the current evidence, consciousness is not implied by what we know of brain activity? That in our current best theories of brains, zombies are possible?

But that it is possible that zombies are impossible? (given more evidence in the future).
Death Monkey
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Posted 05/18/06 - 11:31 AM:
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HamishMacSporran,

Are saying that given the current evidence, consciousness is not implied by what we know of brain activity?

Yes. Consciousness is not implied by what we know about brain activity.

That in our current best theories of brains, zombies are possible?

If you are referring to the epiphenomenalist notion of p-zombies, then no. We currently know enough about the brain to confidently conclude that all knowable aspects of consciousness affect the physical world, which means that such zombies are not possible.


DM

Pseudoscience makes Baby Jesus cry.
Monroe
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Posted 05/18/06 - 11:48 AM:
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Death Monkey wrote:
While this may superficially "look" like a logical proof that brains do not imply consciousness, it is not one. In fact, this is simply an example of an argument whose conclusions do not follow from its premises. It does not logically follow from the fact that we use different vocabularies to describe consciousness and brain activity, that the zombie world you have constructed above will not be logically self-contradictory. Frankly, I am puzzled as to why you would think that it does.
A contradiction is asserting the affirmation and negation of a proposition. If the two vocabularies contain none of the same sentences, then no sentence will be both affirmed and denied by assigning truth values to the different vocabularies independently.
Not between the vocabularies, but between the actual nature of consciousness and brains. There is absolutely no reason why limitations of our current vocabularies should have any bearing on the nature of consciousness. The vocabularies we use just represent (some) of what we currently know about these things, and in the case of consciousness, do not even really represent it very accurately.
Ultimately we need a logical entailment for materialism to work. Logic involves language, so we must ultimately get constraints between the vocabularies.
As Andrew said, this is already being done. You make it sound as though no progress has been made towards understanding the relationship between brain and mind. This is completely ridiculous. There are connections between the vocabularies. The presence of these connections is what forces dualists to go on about "neural correlates" of consciousness. If there was no connection between the vocabularies, as you claim, then there would be no "neural correlates" of consciousness, because there would be no correlations. An understanding of the correlations between consciousness and brain activity provides the connection between the two vocabularies.
Let me clarify: By brain activity entailing consciousness, I do not mean the set of all sentences involving some reference to brain activity entailing the set of sentences about consciousness. There are empirical facts about the correlations between consciousness and brain activity. These facts involve reference to brain activity, so they obviously can be used to derive the presence of conscious phenomena from the presence of brain activity. What I mean by brain activity entailing consciousness is the set of sentences involving reference only to brain activity entailing consciousness. Gathering empirical correlations will not help to establish the entailment, since the correlations will use words from both vocabularies. Conceptual analysis is the only option.
Death Monkey
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Posted 05/18/06 - 12:07 PM:
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Monroe,

While this may superficially "look" like a logical proof that brains do not imply consciousness, it is not one. In fact, this is simply an example of an argument whose conclusions do not follow from its premises. It does not logically follow from the fact that we use different vocabularies to describe consciousness and brain activity, that the zombie world you have constructed above will not be logically self-contradictory. Frankly, I am puzzled as to why you would think that it does.

A contradiction is asserting the affirmation and negation of a proposition. If the two vocabularies contain none of the same sentences, then no sentence will be both affirmed and denied by assigning truth values to the different vocabularies independently.

This argument requires that the sentence in question not make any reference to anything whose properties are not completely specified by the definitions of the terms used. In other words, that the sentence be analytic rather than synthetic. But the sentence in question is synthetic. It makes reference to properties of both consciousness and brain activity which are not specified by the definitions of those terms.

As Andrew said, this is already being done. You make it sound as though no progress has been made towards understanding the relationship between brain and mind. This is completely ridiculous. There are connections between the vocabularies. The presence of these connections is what forces dualists to go on about "neural correlates" of consciousness. If there was no connection between the vocabularies, as you claim, then there would be no "neural correlates" of consciousness, because there would be no correlations. An understanding of the correlations between consciousness and brain activity provides the connection between the two vocabularies.

Let me clarify: By brain activity entailing consciousness, I do not mean the set of all sentences involving some reference to brain activity entailing the set of sentences about consciousness. There are empirical facts about the correlations between consciousness and brain activity. These facts involve reference to brain activity, so they obviously can be used to derive the presence of conscious phenomena from the presence of brain activity. What I mean by brain activity entailing consciousness is the set of sentences involving reference only to brain activity entailing consciousness. Gathering empirical correlations will not help to establish the entailment, since the correlations will use words from both vocabularies.

Correlations do not use words. They are described using words.

Anyway, what you have just said amounts to nothing more than saying that correlation does not imply identity. And of course it doesn't. But certain types of correlations are necessary conditions for identity. Like all scientific theories, identity theory cannot possibly be proven to be true. It can only be falsified and/or be shown to be the best theory available to explain what is observed.

Not even conceptual analysis could ever prove identity theory true. Nothing can prove it true. Nor can conceptual analysis prove it wrong. Only empirical evidence (in the form of showing that correlations necessary for identity theory to be true, are not present), could show it to be false.

The role thought experiments have to play in this is to help us to understand what sort of correlations identity theory requires to exist. Unfortunately, the thought experiments I have seen used by dualists to attack identity theory do not attempt to do this. Instead, they either base the thought experiment on premises which contradict identity theory, or they claim that some particular outcome would happen, even though identity theory claims that something else would happen, and then try to argue that this somehow refutes identity theory.


DM

Pseudoscience makes Baby Jesus cry.
HamishMacSporran
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Posted 05/18/06 - 11:53 PM:
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Death Monkey wrote:
HamishMacSporran wrote:

Are saying that given the current evidence, consciousness is not implied by what we know of brain activity?

Yes. Consciousness is not implied by what we know about brain activity.


And so, therefore, the existence of brains that lack consciousness is not contradicted by our best current theories of brain activity (it is obviously contradicted by what we know about consciousness, but that is not the question).

And thus, in our best current theories of brain activity, zombies are possible.
Death Monkey
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Posted 05/20/06 - 07:45 AM:
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Hamish,

And so, therefore, the existence of brains that lack consciousness is not contradicted by our best current theories of brain activity (it is obviously contradicted by what we know about consciousness, but that is not the question).

The existence of brains that lack consciousness is quite uncontraversial. The terms used are usually either "dead brain" or "persistent vegitative state".

And thus, in our best current theories of brain activity, zombies are possible.

This does not follow. Like I said before, we do know that consciousness affects brain activity, and that alone indicates that zombies are not logically possible.

Also, you are apperantly unaware of the distinction between logical possibility, and something being possible in the sense that we do not yet know for certain that it is not possible.

For example, prior to the discovery of the proof of Fermat's last theorem, one could have claimed that it was possible that the theorem is false. But it was not logically possible that it was false, because that would have led to a contradiction.

The logical possibility of p-zombies would imply that identity theory is false. The mere possibility of them in the other sense, implies only that we do not know for sure that identity theory isn't false.

Anyway, since p-zombies are neither logically possible, nor just plain possible, the point is rather moot.


DM

Pseudoscience makes Baby Jesus cry.
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