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The human animal
Why do we seperate ourselves?

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The human animal

The Escapist
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Posted 08/21/08 - 11:40 PM:	#51
cckcckcc wrote: I think the answer to this question lies in only one aspect that we believe humans solely possess, consciousness. Could you just remind me how we think the other animals manage to see and hear and stuff? Clockwork?

Tobias
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Posted 08/21/08 - 11:44 PM:	#52
Environmentalism is taught in schools in a way which is very reminiscent of religious education. Do you have any sources upon which you base that quote? Not that I don't believe you, I do, but it might be valuable for my own research. Thanks, Tobi
"The Power of Kant compels you" "The Power of Kant compels you" "The Power of Kant compels you"

The Escapist
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Posted 08/22/08 - 04:21 AM:	#53
Hi Tobi, Sorry, no, it's just based on personal observation.

cckcckcc
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Posted 08/22/08 - 10:25 AM:	#54
The Escapist wrote: Could you just remind me how we think the other animals manage to see and hear and stuff? Clockwork? We don't know do we? We know they have eyes and ears. We know how eyes and ears work. We can't tell how animals manage to 'see', 'hear' or in otherwords interpret this visual or auditory information. Do we assume it is clockwork? Like a billiard ball boucing off another, the chain reaction of sight causes instincts to set in and action insues. Is that thought? Is that human thought? Edited by cckcckcc on 08/22/08 - 10:31 AM
"Before enlightenment - chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment - chop wood, carry water." ~Zen Buddhist Proverb I have this sneaking suspicion that I am really God and have invented everyone and everything as a means of fooling myself into not being lonely. I'm not sure if it is working yet.

TLK
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Posted 08/22/08 - 09:19 PM:	#55
My take on this would be identifying consciousness as: a: the quality or state of being aware especially of something within oneself b: the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, state, or fact c: awareness; Everything we'd consider alive is conscious at some level. Cheetahs, Whales, Giraffes, etc. Humans are conscious just like animals. We are made out of the same fleshy substance and organs as animals are. Consciousness is, of course, the ability to interpret your surroundings, typically through light entering your pupil (EYEBALLSLOL), and then act according to what you see or however you interpret whats around you. We (humans) are on the highest plane of consciousness out of all the other animals on Earth. How do I describe this exactly? I'll see what I can do. A human see's a ball, or a round shaped rock. He picks it up. He entertains himself by throwing it up in the air, catching it, and proceeding to do the same thing over and over purely for entertainment, while going to find his next meal. Later on in the evening the Man invents Football. A wolf see's a ball, or a round shaped rock. He steps over it, moving on to go find his next meal. He does not acknowledge the ball as anything more than a useless obstacle that does not directly satisfy his list of needs as dictated by his instincts that tell him to "eat because you need it to live so you can have baby wolves with a girl wolf". No progress past the bare requirement is made (on the wolves part). Does this make sense? Now why would a man, an organic fleshling composed of similar materials that make up everything else that's alive, try to create a wall between himself and all the other 'lesser beings'? Well looking at it from a 'now' standpoint, I'd say it is because we rule the world. We are the top of the food chain and have no predators. I imagine, given our capability of thought, and lengthy history of trying to find a purpose, we'd eventually 'look down' on everything that can't appreciate or look at things the same way we do.(lolreligiousintolerance) Now I imagine an origin to this would probably go back to the earlier days of Man when he was destitute in pretty much every conceivable way. No technology, no set moral guide, no established home or civilization, etc.. Being in a completely unknown and mysterious world, he sought to make sense of it, to understand his sorroundings. Of course, the usage of Gods and myths to explain the world is proportional to how scientifically advanced humans were at the time. But that is irrelevant. After "understanding" his surroundings, whether it be through a God or a microscope, I guess we just eventually hit a point where having kids and dying just wasn't good enough reason to be satisfied with living anymore. We needed a greater than makin' babies purpose. And what better way to explain the unexplainable (or rather in this case, the hard to swallow reality that there is no greater purpose) than GOD! God created Man, he gave them dominion over animals and everything on Earth is pretty much below him. Which is accurate, because we are better than everything else. Nothing has been able to stop our widespread takeover of the planet thus far, so we pretty much own. I think after minimizing this page over and over again, I'd briefly summarize that natural warranted human elitism combined with some religious influence had Man separate himself from the animals of a lower consciousness. And in a man's philosophical or spiritual struggle to find out who he is, where he fits into the universe, and his ultimate purpose, it just doesn't help your ego to know that you're no more truly 'important' than an animal. The connotations attached with the word Animal have been affected by this elitism. " a: one of the lower animals as distinguished from human beings b: mammal; broadly : vertebrate" (one of the definitions for the world animal) Whenever you see someone acting out of line, or acting on his instincts or emotions (anger or jealousy, typically) you have a chance of hearing "he's such an animal." , meaning that humans don't think very highly of natural behaviors, and in fact consider themselves capable of being above it. I guess a lot of this concept isn't really philosophy as much as it is psychology. but they cross over quite often so I guess it isn't a huge surprise. --------------------------------------------------End that train of thought To clarify, we are better than animals, but were still animals. We are capable of a wider range of thoughts and emotions than animals. This is what makes us better. I am of the opinion that we also communicate a lot better. Of course I would like to say that even today there are plenty of people who do not put their mind to use whatsoever, and live shallow, thoughtless lives, following their instincts. To me (unrelated to this topic) all humans are governed by their instincts and hormones. Our purpose is pretty much to reproduce and it stops after that. But we are capable of dressing up our single purpose in more ways than a barbie and ken doll nowadays. I've kind of toyed around with a theory that there may actually be a psychological mechanism (READ: INSTINCT) that actually pushes you in the direction of believing in a religion or in some kind of God. Nature's way of ensuring man's will to survive, with our capability of thought mathematically figured in to the equation. I imagine many people without this greater purpose or source of happiness (jesus inside my heart, Jesus is the reason I live, etc.) they'd probably be very unhappy, possibly suicidal, or at the very least have their sex drives killed and not look at the world as a very happy place, thus not wanting to introduce children in that kind of environment. Who knows what would happen if the billions of religious people all over the world were suddenly unable to grab on to that metaphysical existence/greater purpose. That "oomf" in the morning that keeps them going. But hey, I probably just ranted everyone's faces off in the most incoherent manner possible, so my apologies to anyone who has troubles understanding due to poor wording and thought structure. I should probably go to bed.

The Escapist
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Posted 08/22/08 - 11:14 PM:	#56
TLK wrote: Everything we'd consider alive is conscious at some level. Cheetahs, Whales, Giraffes, etc. Plants? Bacteria? I didn't read the rest of your piece. Why should I think about what you're saying when you haven't?

yiming
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Posted 08/23/08 - 04:34 AM:	#57
The Escapist wrote: Name one capability where humans don't surpass what a monkey can achieve. Ok. How about living well on 40 sq. miles of real estate without having to pay any kind of taxes?

TLK
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Posted 08/23/08 - 08:52 AM:	#58
I knew it was you, D8. Hmm, plants and bacteria, things that can't really have any kind of thought because they lack all the necessary tools (or rather, just the big B). I think it'd be because they can't have any controlled thought to make them conscious, they're simply alive. b: the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, state, or fact c Conscious: 1: perceiving, apprehending, or noticing with a degree of controlled thought or observation Although I don't really see the point in arguing such a ill thought out and ill mannered argument, since the original post addressed Man's 'separation' from animals where the OP was pretty much talking directly about the larger, developed animals that we know for certain are capable of some form of thought. But reading the thread, staying on topic doesn't seem to be a priority here. http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html On a lighter note, if plants had brains we'd have Or the giving microorganisms! Edited by TLK on 08/23/08 - 09:06 AM

kkiiji
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Posted 08/23/08 - 10:10 AM:	#59
Controlled thought, that's interesting. What exactly is a controlled thought? Can we humans have controlled thoughts? Does that equate with free will? Last I heard free will was under serious debate still. If the self is equated with being the first person perspective of chemicals and neurons in our bodies, firing and coursing through, then it couldn't possibly have control over itself. I mean I see all thoughts as an after-image of what has happened biologically in our bodies, and this is more scientifically justified is it not? If this is true, then we are precisely just animals driven by their biology completely incapable of escaping the responsive urges of that biology. I do see religion as a result of our biology though, it seems that we're in fact biologically geared towards comfort, security, and completion. This feature can easily be seen as biologically advantageous, and could easily explain our tendency to come up with cycles, polar opposites, absolutes, and magical interpretations of the world around us. Though once again I'd say it's a mistake to judge anything's value or superiority without using our own human value scales, why subject yourself to a value scale that is not yours? Why would anything matter if it is judged by a value scale that is not in some ways yours?
Heard joke once: Man goes to doctor. Says he's depressed. Says life seems harsh and cruel. Says he feels all alone in a threatening world where what lies ahead is vague and uncertain. Doctor says "Treatment is simple. Great clown Pagliacci is in town tonight. Go and see him. That should pick you up." Man bursts into tears. Says "But Doctor... I am Pagliacci." Good joke, everybody laugh. Roll on snare drum... Curtains.

TLK
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Posted 08/23/08 - 02:44 PM:	#60
kkiiji wrote: Controlled thought, that's interesting. What exactly is a controlled thought? Can we humans have controlled thoughts? Does that equate with free will? Last I heard free will was under serious debate still. If the self is equated with being the first person perspective of chemicals and neurons in our bodies, firing and coursing through, then it couldn't possibly have control over itself. I mean I see all thoughts as an after-image of what has happened biologically in our bodies, and this is more scientifically justified is it not? If this is true, then we are precisely just animals driven by their biology completely incapable of escaping the responsive urges of that biology. I do see religion as a result of our biology though, it seems that we're in fact biologically geared towards comfort, security, and completion. This feature can easily be seen as biologically advantageous, and could easily explain our tendency to come up with cycles, polar opposites, absolutes, and magical interpretations of the world around us. Though once again I'd say it's a mistake to judge anything's value or superiority without using our own human value scales, why subject yourself to a value scale that is not yours? Why would anything matter if it is judged by a value scale that is not in some ways yours? I'd define a controlled thought as a thought that you have a grasp/hand on. Such as creating a thought. Or maybe you're staring at something, and change it in your head although you aren't affecting the object in reality. Look at a red apple, I wonder what that'd apple look like if it was green? And then you imagine it green, you'd somewhat "see" an apple with a green outer covering. That is a really poor example and for that I apologize. As for Free will. I don't think free will exists. Free will, as defined by Merriam-Webster is: Main Entry: free will Function: noun Date: 13th century 1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will> 2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention This is all up for debate, but the way I see it, everything is determined by prior causes. Starting with the creation (or start) of the universe, I imagine everything as an unbreakable chain of events that influence the moments after it. Everything you see or think (the chemicals in your brains moving around, reacting to stimulus, or whatever thought comes to your mind) or the position of an unrecognized rock flying through space billions of light years away were all influenced by the moments (whether you want to measure the moments in seconds, minutes, milliseconds, or even whatever is lower than that) making the universe, and every event or thing that ever happens simply another domino knocking down another domino. I love that idea. So looking back onto that definition of free will, I'd say its toast in my mind. Also, in a system where everything is a result of something else, if you were able to have some kind of omniscient ability to know everything that's happening, you could tell the future because you'd know what would happen afterward! If the self is equated with being the first person perspective of chemicals and neurons in our bodies, firing and coursing through, then it couldn't possibly have control over itself. I mean I see all thoughts as an after-image of what has happened biologically in our bodies, and this is more scientifically justified is it not? If this is true, then we are precisely just animals driven by their biology completely incapable of escaping the responsive urges of that biology. Well since I already completely trash talked Free Will, I can't really disagree with that assessment, if what you're indeed trying to say is that we don't really have any freedom because what we always want and strive for is merely a result of our biology, which I think would be correct. It is just really complex biology. But following this train of thought, nothing would be, would it? Because this way were saying that everything a person or animal would strive for would be because something in its head tells it that is what it wants or what it wants to do in order to achieve a state of satisfaction or happiness. So anything alive would be a slave to such a mental process, correct? Well, I have to go back to work. Home for lunch! I'm 18 and work at Home Depot, so pardon me if I come off as a dumbshit know-nothing loser. I have no real philosophical background/education whatsoever.

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