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The 'goal' of society

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The 'goal' of society

sensabile
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Posted 11/19/03 - 11:42 AM:	#31
spiritualiize wrote: Damn, I was enjoying the thread, but all this...what is it... "psycho-babble" (heheh) is deteriorating the thread itself. Society I believe was the topic, not illusions of Life & Death or "Oath's" ...fuck it. Go on with the psycho-babble stuff. I was enjoying it too, I don't know what happened, it all started with something about ants, stars, oaths and now apparently life and death is an illusion? Froclown seems to have this inimitable ability to use unjustifiable and abstract ideas in his posts; which seem to have completely thrown the subject out of the window.
For the winner there was a big three-legged cauldron to stand over a fire - it was worth a dozen oxen by the Greek's reckoning - and for the loser he brought forward a woman thoroughly trained in domestic work whom they valued at four oxen. -Homer's The Illiad Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? -Mark 9:50

froclown
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Posted 11/19/03 - 12:14 PM:	#32
I was just replying to baron's remarks against me. The point is that Scoiety's goal is to provide an environement that promotes the healthy expression of the True Will, for every individuals, without restrictions based on general, set, or absolute moral codes. When every individuals acts on his True Will, everyone has his own orbit that does not collide with another orbit. It is only when we are driven to act in undisciplined ways that drift from the True Will, that we interfer with another's Will. Society exists to help each individuals discover the limits of his own Will and to develope the discipline necessary to adhere to those limits. Just as ants, and stars, and cells in the body do. Never mind the Oath, it is beyond your grade. Life and death are illusions of time means, everything that is, is, no matter what pattern it exists in. Life is just a pattern of atoms, that is it's just a space-time arrangement of stuff. Remove space-time, and there is no life or death, just stuff out there. And at time T1 - Tn, I exist, am alive. If At T3 I exist, then it is always the case that at T3 I exist. Society is an arrangement of stuff in space-time patterns also. We should best fit the geometry of the shapes of individuals with the shape of a society. That is the goal of society, to me a geometric pattern that unilizes every indiviuals gemometric shape based on it's natural properties. To build a geodesic dome, the hexigons and pentagons, have to fit in the right place, to set one rule for all shapes makes it impossible to form a dome. The Dome as a whole has no goal, it is the structure formed by using the shapes properly. Society as a synergetic property, just as the dome does. And that property only arises from the individual natures of each unit, it is not imposed on the pieces by the whole.
"X/\|-\|3\|\| `/0\|_\|'/3 [)0\|\|3 +\|-\|1\|\|6$ \|216\|-\|+, \|30\|\|3 X/0\|\|'+ \|}3 $\|_\|\|23 `/0\|_\|'/3 [)0\|\|3 @\|\|`/+\|-\|1\|\|6 @+ @\|\|" 60[)

sensabile
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Posted 11/19/03 - 01:48 PM:	#33
The point is that Scoiety's goal is to provide an environement that promotes the healthy expression of the True Will, for every individuals, without restrictions based on general, set, or absolute moral codes. When every individuals acts on his True Will, everyone has his own orbit that does not collide with another orbit. It is only when we are driven to act in undisciplined ways that drift from the True Will, that we interfer with another's Will. Firstly what do you mean by 'True Will' as opposed to 'Will'? You're idea of a society is not very realistic, you seem to be building a structure from men that are much more pure than the actual man that society has to deal with. To suggest that acting upon out own 'True Will' will never 'collide' with another persons 'Will' is a rather tricky statement. For if you are to say that 'True Will' is a man to (in simpleton terms - as you have not explaiend the meaning of 'True Will') to go about his business that he will never 'collide' with another then that is ludicrous. People are not so perfect as to be united in oppinion yet are prone to disgaree without cause or reason. Never mind the Oath, it is beyond your grade. I have no grade to speak of so how can it be beyond me? Also I never questioned the Oath so do not speak of 'never mind' to me. Life and death are illusions of time means, everything that is, is, no matter what pattern it exists in. Life is just a pattern of atoms, that is it's just a space-time arrangement of stuff. Remove space-time, and there is no life or death, just stuff out there. And at time T1 - Tn, I exist, am alive. If At T3 I exist, then it is always the case that at T3 I exist. 'Life' and 'Death' are words and concepts with meaning, just because you happen to believe that simply because we are made of a continuous entity, i.e. atoms, does not mean that these concepts do not exist. I can understand your confusion that these concepts do not contend with atoms because they are eternal but they do compare to the 'pattern' of humans and animals alike. Society is an arrangement of stuff in space-time patterns also. We should best fit the geometry of the shapes of individuals with the shape of a society. That is the goal of society, to me a geometric pattern that unilizes every indiviuals gemometric shape based on it's natural properties. Instead of comparing your answer to a shape, please try and justify it in real life, by that I mean in the context of reality not your abstract words and concepts but so that we inferior beings on the 'lower planes' can understand you.
For the winner there was a big three-legged cauldron to stand over a fire - it was worth a dozen oxen by the Greek's reckoning - and for the loser he brought forward a woman thoroughly trained in domestic work whom they valued at four oxen. -Homer's The Illiad Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? -Mark 9:50

froclown
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Posted 11/19/03 - 03:55 PM:	#34
I'm not comparing it to a shape it is a shape. That is all processes are 4 diminsional shapes, if we expand time beyond the instant of now, to include past and future. Society is to be a stable and synergic inter-lacing of these shapes. That is such that the whole is more than the parts. The individuals can accomplish more inthe society than alone, yet they must not lose anything in being a member of the society. True Will, is the natural inclination of the individual, as apposed to the passing whims of the individuals. For instantce a child's Will may be to go out and play, butif he breaks a cup out of a fit of tantrum, he must not spend all day making or buying a new cup. Thus his passive whim to break something, restricted his True Will, to play outside. A strict adherence to one's own True Will, which requires strong discipline against passing whims, is the only law which is proper to exist in a society. All other laws, authorities, mannors, rules, religious mandates, or ethical codes, only serve to interfer with the natrual expression of the True Will. The goal of society is then to eliminate the tendancy of those with poor discipline to impose their passing desires in such a way that it restricts the True Will of another individuals. Thus if society insures strong self-discipline to the chldren, which allows then to discover and adhere to thier own True Will, then no external moral codes or oppresive authorities will appear to restrict the natural interactions and associations between free individuals. Only those with weak or perverted Will, seek to control others. Improve the self-disciplne, remove the tendancies of nationalism, loyalty to religious, and obedience to external authority. Then alone will the society function to it's Goal.
"X/\|-\|3\|\| `/0\|_\|'/3 [)0\|\|3 +\|-\|1\|\|6$ \|216\|-\|+, \|30\|\|3 X/0\|\|'+ \|}3 $\|_\|\|23 `/0\|_\|'/3 [)0\|\|3 @\|\|`/+\|-\|1\|\|6 @+ @\|\|" 60[)

spiritualiize
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Posted 11/19/03 - 11:51 PM:	#35
Alright, too much support is based on this True Will stuff. Has the exact term 'True Will' come up on any past philosopher's writings so as to get a better explanation? Otherwise I just hear a lot of exaggerated expectations for an individual, which don't seem likely to happen. I'm getting this Freudian 'Id' vision in my head because you are describing a person acting on his passion and only that, disregarding any "passive whim" that might take into consideration REALITY. I may be wrong, but anyhow, man is stuck with an ego that will quite possibly never allow him to be so pure in thought as you would so much like. The previous discussions between sensabile and Baron was making way more sense. Why? It's based on the REALITY of "society". Now then, ya'll fool's best step in and continue the discussion on the difference between culture and society...
In heaven, all the interesting people are missing. -Nietzsche I became insane with horrible intervals of sanity. -Edgar A. Poe To live one must not commit suicide; a choice..never a cause. -Spirit

yolandayeti
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Posted 11/20/03 - 12:19 AM:	#36
Mr. Froclown, this sounds like Nazism to me, in another guise. Am I right?

yolandayeti
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Posted 11/20/03 - 12:34 AM:	#37
I certainly like the 'behavioural conditioning' bit to achieve the 'free will'. Excuse me, THE WILL!

yolandayeti
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Posted 11/20/03 - 12:42 AM:	#38
Tell me more about the people who do the conditioning to imbue the others with the True Will. No doubt they are selfless in their quest, these guardians of society, and wouldn't even think of exercising their power to their own advantage. To quote from Baron: LOL, LOL, and LOLLY LOL LOL.

ashingular
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Posted 11/20/03 - 12:55 AM:	#39
"This sounds like Nazism to me, but in another guise" No wonder that avatar of his looked so disturbingly familiar, especially when placed in conjunction to his words!!!!!!! It's like some Aryan Avatar! Uber-Avatar!

yolandayeti
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Posted 11/20/03 - 01:01 AM:	#40
All it needs is a moustache!

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