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The 'goal' of society

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The 'goal' of society

sensabile
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Posted 11/15/03 - 08:51 AM:	#11
Baron Max wrote: Yeah, and yet we continue to view and discuss "society" in terms of the individual! ...which simply can't be done ...let alone be "right". Exactly. Where we lose out in the analysis of "society" is when we lose sight of the rest of the people that make up that society. Too often people can ONLY focus on their OWN needs, desires, wants to the exclusion of others ...even within their own circle of friends, family, etc. Perhaps it's 'cause they're just selfish and egotistical? And being an old fart, I just have to view "society" as deteriorating from that of the past. In my day and time, there was always a consideration of others ...even if it were ignored, at the very least, there WAS that consideration. Now, I fear, even that is lost ...or deteriorated horribly. Yep! And multiply that by almost every person on Earth and then what have you? ...a mass of individuals who have virtually no interest in any of the other individuals! Geez, it becomes so ...well, it's just over-fuckin'-whelming, ain't it? Baron Max I wanted to think more about this subject before I replied and after playing a vigorous game of squash I think I have a suitable reply. If a society be of a common interest to a group or mass, then think of this: individuals make up a mass-->which make up a society. So therefore the common interest of the individuals within a mass would be the interest of the society. If the common interest of the society is to not be a society and to be an individual...isn't that still a society? I doubt it because the society has to have morals and law of which an individual has to follow to be a part of the society, however the individuals have created their own morals and quite frankly ignore law (except for the pretty major ones like murder etc). So the reason for the deteoriating society is the individuals new morals and law which they have created for themselves. This is easily observed through the amount of people who commit tax and insurance fraud, what kind of morals are they?!? Another thing I've noticed that a decrease in the ability to communicate, i.e. the deteoriation of language into the modern slang and dumbing down has marked a turning point, straight down into a world that thrives for idiots. I think it's time to turn to the oldest of society, young people seem to think now that they know best, even though they have not lived half their lives they think they know more than someone who has. Because old people moan about what's wrong with society (in general) they get shut out as being senile and out of touch but how right they are. (this is coming from a young person, from someone who knows what young people think and feel.)
For the winner there was a big three-legged cauldron to stand over a fire - it was worth a dozen oxen by the Greek's reckoning - and for the loser he brought forward a woman thoroughly trained in domestic work whom they valued at four oxen. -Homer's The Illiad Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? -Mark 9:50

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Posted 11/15/03 - 10:47 AM:	#12
Yeah, Sensabile, it's truly a confusing mess ...that's a fact! ...LOL! I am glad that you took some time to think about it and lots of what you say is true ...or at least at first glance. I've also found that pondering "society" from various viewpoints, young-to-old, old-to-young, Iraqi-to-American, Russian-to-Chechnyen, Chinese-to-Indian, etc., seems to make things even more confusing, convoluted and difficult to understand. And shouldn't it be the other way 'round?? Shouldn't more thinking lead to better understanding? So perhaps the very concept of "society" is what's wrong ...maybe there ain't no such thing? sensabile wrote: I think it's time to turn to the oldest of society, young people seem to think now that they know best, even though they have not lived half their lives they think they know more than someone who has. Because old people moan about what's wrong with society (in general) they get shut out as being senile and out of touch but how right they are. Well, being an old fart, that has some appeal to me ....however, every time I think about it, I remember all of the old farts who are doing horribly immoral things even as we speak! So, you see, that ain't such a good idea either, is it? How would you like to turn it all over to people like Ken Lay of Enron or whatshiname Durst who kills a person, cuts up his body and throws the parts into the Gulf of Mexico ....and is exonerated? No, I think perhaps we should turn the world over to the young ...especially to those who seem to know it all. I mean, think about it, aren't the young going to have to live in the world that they create? Who better to design the way for them to live? Us old farts will only be here for a little bit longer, so it ain't gonna' be such a big deal, is it? And, besides, since the young know everything and know how everything works, they could put us old farts in "Old Fart Institutions" and they'd not even have to worry about us gumming up the works. ...LOL! "And this is coming from an old fart, from someone who knows what old farts think and feel." ...LOL! ...but, I might add, perhaps knows also a bit of how the young think and feel??? ...weren't we old farts young once upon a time? Baron Max

sensabile
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Posted 11/15/03 - 11:02 AM:	#13
Yeah, Sensabile, it's truly a confusing mess ...that's a fact! ...LOL! I am glad that you took some time to think about it and lots of what you say is true ...or at least at first glance. I've also found that pondering "society" from various viewpoints, young-to-old, old-to-young, Iraqi-to-American, Russian-to-Chechnyen, Chinese-to-Indian, etc., seems to make things even more confusing, convoluted and difficult to understand. And shouldn't it be the other way 'round?? Shouldn't more thinking lead to better understanding? So perhaps the very concept of "society" is what's wrong ...maybe there ain't no such thing? I think perhaps you have mixed concept 'society' up with the concept of 'culture' which is an all together different thing...or not entirely different I suppose. Culture would seem to be the basis of society and society cannot exist without it. The best way I can think of explaining it is: There is a new 'culture' in my generation of binge drinking and this in turn creates the society I live in. Well, being an old fart, that has some appeal to me ....however, every time I think about it, I remember all of the old farts who are doing horribly immoral things even as we speak! So, you see, that ain't such a good idea either, is it? How would you like to turn it all over to people like Ken Lay of Enron or whatshiname Durst who kills a person, cuts up his body and throws the parts into the Gulf of Mexico ....and is exonerated? No, I think perhaps we should turn the world over to the young ...especially to those who seem to know it all. I mean, think about it, aren't the young going to have to live in the world that they create? Who better to design the way for them to live? Us old farts will only be here for a little bit longer, so it ain't gonna' be such a big deal, is it? And, besides, since the young know everything and know how everything works, they could put us old farts in "Old Fart Institutions" and they'd not even have to worry about us gumming up the works.[QUOTE] You have a point there, however isn't it the old who raise the young? Ideally I think you would have old mixed with young. Another thing is there needs to be more education into the world of well..the world. There's all these new fancy subjects going around like 'Child Development' and 'Home Economics' I mean great if you're interested in that sorta stuff...but not very good at developing your mind towards how the world operates. ...LOL! "And this is coming from an old fart, from someone who knows what old farts think and feel." ...LOL! ...but, I might add, perhaps knows also a bit of how the young think and feel??? ...weren't we old farts young once upon a time? [QUOTE] Heh
For the winner there was a big three-legged cauldron to stand over a fire - it was worth a dozen oxen by the Greek's reckoning - and for the loser he brought forward a woman thoroughly trained in domestic work whom they valued at four oxen. -Homer's The Illiad Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? -Mark 9:50

sensabile
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Posted 11/15/03 - 11:02 AM:	#14
Yeah, Sensabile, it's truly a confusing mess ...that's a fact! ...LOL! I am glad that you took some time to think about it and lots of what you say is true ...or at least at first glance. I've also found that pondering "society" from various viewpoints, young-to-old, old-to-young, Iraqi-to-American, Russian-to-Chechnyen, Chinese-to-Indian, etc., seems to make things even more confusing, convoluted and difficult to understand. And shouldn't it be the other way 'round?? Shouldn't more thinking lead to better understanding? So perhaps the very concept of "society" is what's wrong ...maybe there ain't no such thing? I think perhaps you have mixed concept 'society' up with the concept of 'culture' which is an all together different thing...or not entirely different I suppose. Culture would seem to be the basis of society and society cannot exist without it. The best way I can think of explaining it is: There is a new 'culture' in my generation of binge drinking and this in turn creates the society I live in. Well, being an old fart, that has some appeal to me ....however, every time I think about it, I remember all of the old farts who are doing horribly immoral things even as we speak! So, you see, that ain't such a good idea either, is it? How would you like to turn it all over to people like Ken Lay of Enron or whatshiname Durst who kills a person, cuts up his body and throws the parts into the Gulf of Mexico ....and is exonerated? No, I think perhaps we should turn the world over to the young ...especially to those who seem to know it all. I mean, think about it, aren't the young going to have to live in the world that they create? Who better to design the way for them to live? Us old farts will only be here for a little bit longer, so it ain't gonna' be such a big deal, is it? And, besides, since the young know everything and know how everything works, they could put us old farts in "Old Fart Institutions" and they'd not even have to worry about us gumming up the works. You have a point there, however isn't it the old who raise the young? Ideally I think you would have old mixed with young. Another thing is there needs to be more education into the world of well..the world. There's all these new fancy subjects going around like 'Child Development' and 'Home Economics' I mean great if you're interested in that sorta stuff...but not very good at developing your mind towards how the world operates. ...LOL! "And this is coming from an old fart, from someone who knows what old farts think and feel." ...LOL! ...but, I might add, perhaps knows also a bit of how the young think and feel??? ...weren't we old farts young once upon a time? Heh
For the winner there was a big three-legged cauldron to stand over a fire - it was worth a dozen oxen by the Greek's reckoning - and for the loser he brought forward a woman thoroughly trained in domestic work whom they valued at four oxen. -Homer's The Illiad Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? -Mark 9:50

froclown
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Posted 11/15/03 - 11:26 AM:	#15
In the ant colony, every ant just does what it wants to do, it has no enforced rule or law, it has no communal love of queen and country. Each just does what it Wills to do, that is it expresses it's natural being that has developed over years of evolutionary trial and error. The ants in a colony do not kill eachother, or get in the way, they all work very effeciently as a society. That is to say every ant is a star, with it's own individual orbit that makes up the ant colony. Every man and every woman is a star. If every individuals does his own Will, in the same way that the ant does hiw own Will, then the society will function without a hitch. That is the goal of society. The problem with society as it is now, is that people want to obey set and absolute rules and morals over their own dynamic Will. Then others want to impose Laws and moralities, because they want to have power and control, that is they wany others to do their Will for them. Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law. If you do anything other than what you yourself truely Will, that is giving into pressure from "authorities" or pursuing the immediate pleasures of various passions and fears of the moment. Then your society will invent laws, morals, and eventually, the "loyal miniseters" arive to tell everyone what his True Will is. Then striped of true will, everyone becomes a slave to the word of the "authority" and society becomes a means to the ends of an elite class. This is bad, because the eiltes will not care if the system physically and spiritually destroys it's citizens, so long as they profit.
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sensabile
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Posted 11/15/03 - 12:58 PM:	#16
froclown wrote: In the ant colony, every ant just does what it wants to do, it has no enforced rule or law, it has no communal love of queen and country. Each just does what it Wills to do, that is it expresses it's natural being that has developed over years of evolutionary trial and error. The ants in a colony do not kill eachother, or get in the way, they all work very effeciently as a society. That is to say every ant is a star, with it's own individual orbit that makes up the ant colony. Every man and every woman is a star. If every individuals does his own Will, in the same way that the ant does hiw own Will, then the society will function without a hitch. That is the goal of society. The problem with society as it is now, is that people want to obey set and absolute rules and morals over their own dynamic Will. Then others want to impose Laws and moralities, because they want to have power and control, that is they wany others to do their Will for them. Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law. If you do anything other than what you yourself truely Will, that is giving into pressure from "authorities" or pursuing the immediate pleasures of various passions and fears of the moment. Then your society will invent laws, morals, and eventually, the "loyal miniseters" arive to tell everyone what his True Will is. Then striped of true will, everyone becomes a slave to the word of the "authority" and society becomes a means to the ends of an elite class. This is bad, because the eiltes will not care if the system physically and spiritually destroys it's citizens, so long as they profit. If the truth be told, how can you compare us to ants? Humans are not as simple as ants. I think Plato has addressed this already and what you describe about the ants is similiar to what Plato describes as one of his Uphorias. A life of simplicity where man only makes, eats and uses what he needs; raises his children properly and does not wage war on neighbouring peoples out of greed or for any other reason. However he also explains, which is the difference between us and ants, why we cannot live that Uphoria, that it is because of human greed and want of luxury. He then goes on to explain how it creates war, classes, and government and how exactly each destroy themselves by themselves. The point of me saying that is it shows how complicated humans make things or actually are. Because of such ridiculously simple things as 'greed' we make such a mess of everything and the world. Of course it could fuel proggression but why can't we have proggression without destruction and corruption? What is it in humans that makes us so destructive and greedy?
For the winner there was a big three-legged cauldron to stand over a fire - it was worth a dozen oxen by the Greek's reckoning - and for the loser he brought forward a woman thoroughly trained in domestic work whom they valued at four oxen. -Homer's The Illiad Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? -Mark 9:50

froclown
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Posted 11/15/03 - 01:59 PM:	#17
Ants are far more complex that solar systems, wolf packs more complex than ants. From the atom to the galaxy, everything has its own Path and it's own Will. Man is between atoms and planets, but even man has a Will to guide him. All problems are a result of restricition of that Will. If you restrict the Will of a river, you cause a flood. If you restrict the Will of the forrest, you create a desert. If you restrict the Will of your fellow man, you create a criminal. If you restrict your own Will out of obedience to a moral code or legal statue, then you create a mental complex, a perverted behavior, and make a ciminal of your self. Restriction is the word of sin. If you restrict the ants with an external law, or ideal of how the colony should be run, they will all die. Only the trial and error and shaping by experience and experiment, which is reflected in science can properly shape a society. To build a society on absolute law, on moral structures, or obedience to external authority, is to seal it's doom. At very least it will create a perverison in the natural order of how to use people, in the same way that deforrestation perverts the propert use of trees. As the forrest eventually falls to the paper Mill, so too will such a society eventually fall to the opression of elites. The proper Will of man is not to be used a fuel to fire the passions of the decadent elite. The proper use of society is not as a factory to burn men for the pleasure of the elite. The proper Will of each individual must be supported to it's fullest and none restricted. As the gears in a clock, complement each other. If one wheel restricted the movement of another, the clock would cease to function. Man is not an ant, but a clock is not a robot. Robots are comples, and clocks are simple, but each serve a purpose and in each are parts which operate according to natural law, the individuals Will.
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Posted 11/15/03 - 02:29 PM:	#18
Well, that small part was, I guess. But what of the remainding questions posed by the original topic? He missed that part altogether, didn't he? Well, all right. But since I'm an Austrian, you might not like my answers. What is society? It is an arbitrary Platonic ideal invoked to dehumanize and deanthropomorphize human beings for the pupose of political gain and expedience. How are it's members organized? Sometimes by consent, and sometimes by coercion. How do it's members work together? By means of economic praxis in the manner described by Ludwig von Mises in Human Action. Can a member of one society be a member of another competing society? Yes. It happens all the time. It may or may not involve a conflict of interest, and may or may not involve hypocrisy and deceit. How many different societies are there in, say, New York City? Insufficient data exist to respond. How many societies are there in, say, a town of 2,500 people? Op. cit. Is the Ladies Knitting Group a "society"? Yes.
"Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockahm

froclown
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Posted 11/16/03 - 02:52 PM:	#19
I think a network of humans interacting dynamically for the common good, would be much more successful, if no use or reference to the label "society" intefered with them. Just as the free market economy demands, no restriciton on trade, so too a free society must not promote restriction on the Will of it's members. Also, a Free marked system must be built according to specific guidlines to set it up, so to must a free sociaty be set up with origninal guidelines. Those guidlines I call behavioral conditioning, that is to set the people in an environment where they do not desire and/or are not able to restrict for personal gain. The free market economy does not stay free, so long as people attempt to place restricitons on it. Look at the US so called "free market" privite interests get all kinds of laws pased that promote, taxes, tariffs, usery, subsudies, price celings and floors etc. The US is thus no longer a free market, and while these restricitions support privite individuals they are harmfulthe the general population in the long run, and very detrimental to other nations. The same is true for the Wills of individuals, so long as the cultrual-economic-social structure, supports privite interests placing restricitons on the Will and behavior of others for personal gain, people will be Used that way. If enviromental controls are put in place to condition behavior, by changing the environment to one where harmful behaviors that restrict another's Will are no longer beneficial to some at the expence of other, then those behaviors will cease. The Goal of this society is to maximize individual liberty and freedom, by removing all set absolute "rules", morals, Laws, and authorty figures, thus everyone will think and act for themselves instead of for another, be that other, God, State, or other greedy manipulative bastard. While at the same time assuring that the needs of everyone are met by collective efforts.
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Baron Max
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Posted 11/17/03 - 04:21 AM:	#20
Froclown, do you actually wake up every morning believing the stuff that you write? Have you never thoroughly examined those issues, beliefs, thoughts and not had many second or even third thoughts about 'em? I can't help but see your thoughts, beliefs as radicalism or fanaticism ....i.e., beliefs, thoughts without basis in reality. Baron Max

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