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The End of Courtship

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The End of Courtship

zOOmz
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Posted 03/18/05 - 09:52 AM:	#61
Many men do not deserve the attention of a genteel women. We see the behavior of our peers and that is the general direction that we take. It is those who bare the ridicule and stand for refinement and good character that can have the biggest impact on others. It is just that we worry way too much about what others think in our social group. But it has always been so, it is just that individuals seem rarer. Perhaps it has to do with how populous we are becoming. z
got Zen? "Reality is that which doesn't disappear when you stop believing in it." Phillip K. Dick (thanks dimka)

Rachel
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Posted 03/18/05 - 12:43 PM:	#62
kenichi wrote: Don't you think that is at the heart of the issue? The pill led to a Sex in the City lifestyle for many women. Do you want 10 children Kenichi? Although more women today live a sex and the city lifestyle than 40 or 50 years ago, I think most women would still prefer to have a meaningful relationship with just one person. But these can be hard to find. Men are less committed these days too.

Benkei
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Posted 03/22/05 - 05:14 AM:	#63
I think the pill has nothing to do with it, it is an attempt to fix the problem to one single aspect or event in the past. It is quite clearly a larger sociological "problem"; namely, that most people do not consider it a problem but an expression of "freedom" or an "easy lay" or any multitude of reasons. But this is more a perception of the state of affairs not a pointing of fingers. Not many men will deny sex just for sex and this adds as much to women acting in accordance with those expectations as women not having the self-esteem, or the morals - or whatever reason they may have - to act in this way that I consider to be a problem; and some members here with me. I myself know I don't like it, I found that I am happier not conforming to the new stereotype of a man that goes out just to get laid. In some sense I shouldn't complain that the world doesn't conform with my wishes on this issue - as if I should be expecting anything else. I think another interesting question could therefore be: Seeing as we can't change society, how are people like me supposed to adjust - if at all - to these facts? For instance, I have considered moving to the South of Europe, Spain or Italy, where women in general are more appreciative and more playful with regard to courtship than Western women. Hypothetically, if I would, would that be a capitulation, or just a smart thing to do?
Obama is humping the pump in an effort to re-inflate an economy that looks more like a balloon with a 55 caliber bullet hole in it. - Joe Bageant

Gassendi1
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Posted 03/22/05 - 06:18 AM:	#64
Benkei wrote: For instance, I have considered moving to the South of Europe, Spain or Italy, where women in general are more appreciative and more playful with regard to courtship than Western women. Benkei, have you glanced at a map of Europe lately? Unless there has been a geographical cataclysm lately which has not been brought to my notice, aren't Spain and Italy in Western Europe. No wonder you have problems with politics. Strange thing is that from what I have heard, Dutch and Danish ladies are considered the freest in Europe. Amsterdam's (what is that street of ladies in store fronts?) is unmatched in Europe (except, I believe, in Germany). A bad workman always blames his tools.

kenichi
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Posted 03/22/05 - 06:22 AM:	#65
Do you want 10 children Kenichi? Indeed if you are offering. Although more women today live a sex and the city lifestyle than 40 or 50 years ago, I think most women would still prefer to have a meaningful relationship with just one person. But these can be hard to find. Men are less committed these days too. I think many women (and to be fair, men as well) only reach the level of maturity after years of carefree hedonism. Rare these days are the Grover's Corners courtships of a young man and woman. I think the pill has nothing to do with it, it is an attempt to fix the problem to one single aspect or event in the past. It is quite clearly a larger sociological "problem" Perhaps the pill is a cause or perhaps not. But I do believe that it is symptomatic of the feckless mentality that many women bear when they call the invention of the pill "liberation." It is quite a juxtaposition when sexual freedom is confused with any notion of liberation. The fact that the destruction of the old patterns of courtship are celebrated by many women is troubling and should be considered in this debate. As Gassendi intimated in his post, we should consider which variables have significantly changed in the 1960s which might correlate to the courtship issue. Several possibilities were brought up, but in my humble opinion, the womens liberation of the 60's is both the most contemporaneous and the most sociologically feasible. However, I take what softtarget said to heart. The women's liberation (a term I hesitate to use) was not an event outside history's influence. It would take many sociological developments before any culminating movement could occur. Therefore, much of the dissaccord in this debate may be a matter of differing levels of cause, like rings on a tree. softtarget you also brought up (though briefly) the issue of economic boom. I find it interesting that the 1920's was also a decade of economic prosperity (the economy grew 8% under Harding as I recall). That generation would be known for it's "flappers," women who certainly defied the traditional concept of courtship. Also the carnivalesque speak-easies of the day were replaced traditional ways of meeting people of the opposite sex, a prelude to today's club scene. In short, cultural norms were being abandoned by many American youths. Yet post WWII years, a time of signicant economic prosperity, would be the heyday of the American ideal family. So I'm not sure that there exists a correlation between douceur de vivre and how far people are willing to push cultural norms. softtarget a question if I may. You speak of migration in the 50's. I assume you are talking about the migration to suburbia. However, if this is the case, then can't it be argued that if anything social norms were dictated on a larger scale rather than a small one? True, people were further from communities which once served as cultural reinforcement, but don't you think that the concept of an American ideal filled that void? The Beaver Cleaver model of living comes to mind as the American ideal. Though, perhaps I misunderstood what you meant by migration.
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Benkei
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Posted 03/22/05 - 06:37 AM:	#66
Western Europe is not a solely geographical denotation and even if it were, then Italy and Spain certainly would make up part of the South just as Norway and Sweden of the North and Poland of the East. Assuming of course that the regular wind directions of North, South, West and East still apply when looking at a map of Europe. I remember a different discussion on unnecessary snides, why don't you follow your own advice once?
Obama is humping the pump in an effort to re-inflate an economy that looks more like a balloon with a 55 caliber bullet hole in it. - Joe Bageant

Benkei
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Posted 03/22/05 - 06:49 AM:	#67
Ah yes, kenichi, I wasn't entirely clear. By saying that the pill had nothing to do with it I meant that the existence of the pill is not a necessary condition for "loose" behaviour. Certainly not for men, but consider also different cultures, such as Japan. The pill is readily available there as well but the sexual culture is not so that "loose" women are the norm or that they are tolerated as they are in parts of Europe and the US. The introduction of the pill therefore does not seem anywhere near to decisive... instead some general outlook on sex and morality was already present in society before that time to have that pill give the appearance of so much change.
Obama is humping the pump in an effort to re-inflate an economy that looks more like a balloon with a 55 caliber bullet hole in it. - Joe Bageant

Gassendi1
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Posted 03/22/05 - 09:37 AM:	#68
Benkei wrote: Western Europe is not a solely geographical denotation and even if it were, then Italy and Spain certainly would make up part of the South just as Norway and Sweden of the North and Poland of the East. Assuming of course that the regular wind directions of North, South, West and East still apply when looking at a map of Europe. I remember a different discussion on unnecessary snides, why don't you follow your own advice once? Yes, there is that myth about the "Latin" women: sultry and oh, so nurturing. But it is a myth. The Catholic Church still is very influential, whereas the Protestant North is much more easy going. Don't get your hopes (or anything else) up if you are traveling South. Just remain your suave and charming self.

zOOmz
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Posted 03/22/05 - 11:35 AM:	#69
Having been a teen in the sixties, the advent of the pill did not affect me in any way. Nor did it affect most of my friends. My best friend had three kids while taking the pill. Maybe women were not faithful in its usage or were resistant to them. Sexual freedom has little to do with liberation, I agree. Besides, it was really mostly the '70s, not the '60s that attended to such freedom. It wasn't just about the pill but also about the opportunity to obtain abortions in the 70's. Not the best method, but it did offer a realistic alternative when it came to unwanted pregnancies. Free love still had its price. In the late sixties when I started dating, I went out with a lot of guys. Not one of them tried to persuade me to have sex with them beyond an initial test to see how far I would let them go. Necking was plentiful. Guys of course were always hopeful, but not insistant. They knew where the line was drawn and respected that. Perhaps guys had more respect for girls then, or it could be that girls had more respect for themselves and it was fairly clear when boundaries were set. Now, there isn't the boundaries because the norm is not to set boundaries. Expectations are different. There were nice girls and bad girls and guys knew who they were. That is now a blurred criteria. Just one woman's viewpoint. But I am sure there were plenty like me that were teens in the 60's. zOOmz
got Zen? "Reality is that which doesn't disappear when you stop believing in it." Phillip K. Dick (thanks dimka)

Rhodus
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Posted 03/22/05 - 11:59 AM:	#70
Well, I don't consider the change so bad. Indeed there is no longer a distinction between good and bad girls, and that is much better. It only led to a forced repression of sexuality for fear of being a 'bad' girl. Guys now have to realize that the fact that a woman may like sex doesn't mean she likes to have it with everyone every time. And all this means that it is still as difficult to find out whether the other person likes you as it has always been. If you watch modern romantic comedies you can see clearly that the basic questions have never changed, only the form in which they are expressed and resolved. Courtship has changed, but courtship has never been constant. I'm afraid lots of people (Gassendi being a case in point) lack the historical understanding to appreciate that their childhood was already a change from what happened before. It is natural that people prefer what they saw when they grew up, but you should realize that the same applies to every generation, and every generation denounces that what they perceive as change from their childhood. What counts is whether the change works better for the people actually involved. I'm fairly certain that Gassendi isn't involved in courtship right now, which means he shouldn't be the one to judge how it works at present. A disenchantment with the present is usually just the intellectual counterpart of wrinkles and grey hair.

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