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Paul
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Posted 05/10/02 - 04:17 AM:	#1
First, here's a little illustration of the monomyth: http://mitglied.lycos.de/myanima/monomyth.html More depth on myths: http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/smc/journey/ The power of Star Wars is in the skill with which Lucas crafts his monomyth. What I find most interesting, personally, is how the external is a reflection of an internal. The universe of a monomyth can be abstracted to a human mind. I learned this in high school in relation to Yevginy Zamyatin's We, and it's interesting to apply it to Star Wars as well. The entire "galaxy far, far away" can be seen metaphorically as the human mind. In the beginning of the saga (The Phantom Menace) we have a phantom conflict, a case where the conscious mind thinks it's dealing with a minor annoyance issue while the reality of the situation is that the entire foundation is crumbling. There's little awareness of the crumbling foundations in TPM, which is why the destruction still lurks behind cloaks and meddles through political scheming and moves about all other characters as though they're chess pieces, without any of them realizing it. Imagine your sense of security eroding away and finally leaving you with the realization that you're lost, your life is chaos and you don't have a clue of what you should really be doing with it. At least to a small extent, anyone who's human has to go through something similar. This is what The Phantom Menace is about -- it's the ancient order, a republic 25,000 years old or a life however many years old, beginning to shake apart at the foundations. It's become slow, unresponsive, unable to act, and unwilling to care. It shows all the obvious symptoms of depression. The republic in TPM is undoubtedly a depressed being, one which can no longer function due to its own inability to figure out what it wants to do. This is where the talk of greedy, squabbling delegates comes in, and the lack of interest in the common good. Palpatine is figure of change who lurks, waiting to be called upon. Palpatine is about order for the sake of order -- he's the reaction which must fill the chaos when the person succumbs. When the old way of life fails, the only way to avoid death is to force yourself into a new system so rigid that it doesn't allow you to think about your old problems. As Lucas has said in interviews, the Empire does not defeat the Republic... rather, the Republic allows itself to become the Empire. (Lucas' rather cynical view he expressed in a recent interview is that all democracies eventually voluntarily surrender their rights to dictators.) The Empire is the sense of stability which is welcomed as the only alternative to chaos, and the oppression it provides is welcome security against falling back into chaos again. The Star Wars saga is often represented as the battle of good vs. evil, but that's not really what the heart of it is about. The heart of Star Wars is the battle of self vs. self, chaos vs. order, calm vs. fear. The "evil" is the inner destructive tendency toward repression and refusal to confront the actual issues. This unwillingness to confront the issues and inability of the consciousness to reassert a more gentle control over its life is what spans the time from episodes III to IV, certainly. When viewing the galaxy as a single large mind, the Force is thought. The characters with force powers (Jedi and Sith) represent influences on thought, while other characters fall into place behind the force-users. The dark side is thoughts developing from fear while the light side is calm. Neither calm nor fear has worked in ending the civil war, because each denies the reality of the other and so cannot address the full self. This is where the chosen one comes in. Someone must bring balance, and the chosen one does this by living the side of fear and bringing it back to meet the other side. Anakin brings balance to the force by recognizing the totality of the mind and finally bringing the two sides together in the final moment -- the living force is finally bound to the cosmic force.
_____________________ "If a statement is made, it is to be confronted with the totality of existing statements. If it agrees with them, it is joined to them; if it does not agree, it is called 'untrue' and rejected; or the existing complex of statements of science is modified so that the new statement can be incorporated." - Otto Neurath

HVD
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Posted 05/21/02 - 01:54 PM:	#2
"The Universe is a single large mind." Yes, exactly. It is a single eye looking at itself. Chaos vs order, the battle as old as time itself. Although it really should be called disorder vs. order, as chaos is the dynamic equilibrium between the two, so all things are chaos, all things are at cnflict, until we realise that they are not two "sides" in a batlle, but two inseperable parts of ourselves as chaotic beings. hail Eris, friend.

The_Thinker
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Posted 05/23/02 - 06:40 PM:	#3
A single eye looking at itself? HVD or Paul, can you please explain this?

Just call me cheeze!
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Posted 05/24/02 - 10:55 AM:	#4
SPOILER I saw episode 2: attack of the clones the other day, and although the plot wasn't incredibly deep, it had an interesting idea in it that reminded me of the saying of Salvor Hardin, a character in Isaac Asimov's Foundation book: "A blaster is a good weapon, but it can be pointed both ways." The clones are used very effectively on the Jedi's side, but we all know that they become the major troops of the empire that helps establish its "iron grip" with incredible effeciency. Hey, HVD man, are you a Discordian!! All hail Eris! Have you read any robert anton wilson?
_____________________ (Maybe) its helpful to think of my words as more akin to remixed glitch-core than of finely structured melodic verse.

Paul
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Posted 05/24/02 - 02:44 PM:	#5
[[[ more spoilers ]]] Originally posted by Just call me cheeze! I saw episode 2: attack of the clones the other day, and although the plot wasn't incredibly deep, I disagree... it's a perfect execution of the monomyth, very deep, expanding on what I discribed in the first post of this thread. It's certainly a complicated plot as well even without diving into the monomyth. Palpatine creating a sepratist movement to fight against his own Republic in order to get the mandate to use an army, and then attempting to assasinate Padme in order to generate sympathy for himself... Plus the masterful way in which he set up the clone army 10 years earlier and manipulated Obi-Wan into discovering it for him. Fascinating how all the other characters are pawns in his chess game, never knowing that they're involved in his plans.
_____________________ "If a statement is made, it is to be confronted with the totality of existing statements. If it agrees with them, it is joined to them; if it does not agree, it is called 'untrue' and rejected; or the existing complex of statements of science is modified so that the new statement can be incorporated." - Otto Neurath

DarkCloud
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Posted 05/24/02 - 07:02 PM:	#6
Plus the masterful way in which he set up the clone army 10 years earlier and manipulated Obi-Wan into discovering it for him. Are you sure about this? He hired Jandar Fett to kill Obi Wan- not to lead him to the clone army (or does it say differently in the books?)

Paul
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Posted 05/24/02 - 08:00 PM:	#7
Palpatine (through Tyranus/Dooku) hired Jango Fett to oversee the death of Padme, and to kill the assassin before she could talk, but certainly not to kill Obi-Wan. Jango was right there on Coruscant with every chance to get Anakin and Obi-Wan with his poison darts, but he choose not to, he aimed between them in order to only kill Zam. The reason he killed Zam (at least in that manner) was to leave the dart there as a clue. Palpatine knew that the dart would lead Obi-Wan to Kamino. Palpatine's plan revolved around a Jedi discovering the clones all there ready for the Republic to use... it's not like he could come out and say he knew anything about it himself, he has to make himself look innocent and regretfully accept all the clones that just so happen to have been discovered just as the military creation act vote is taking place. He can just smile at the odd coincidence that just as they vote him power to use an army, an army commissioned 10 years ago happens to turn up on a hidden world in a Jedi investigation. The key with Palapatine is to make the Jedi think they're solving a puzzle when they're really just pawns in his game. The fight between Obi-Wan and Jango on Kamino is just self-defense on the part of Jango. He's trying to escape in his ship, and Obi-Wan is trying to capture him.
_____________________ "If a statement is made, it is to be confronted with the totality of existing statements. If it agrees with them, it is joined to them; if it does not agree, it is called 'untrue' and rejected; or the existing complex of statements of science is modified so that the new statement can be incorporated." - Otto Neurath

The_Thinker
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Posted 05/24/02 - 08:52 PM:	#8
Given all this information, Palpatine is a very good manipulator. To the SW Enlightened, is it safe for me to say that EVERYTHING is under Palpatine's control and his purpose is unknown due to its complexity? Does our world operate in such a manner? With so many manipulators that the truth is no longer out there? One after another people will be manipulated. Those manipulators in turn will be manipulated. Everything affects everything else in the universe (through many means, especially gravity, in which one massive object affects every other massive object). Who controls who? Also, out of curiosity, does anyone know what species Yoda is?

DarkCloud
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Posted 05/27/02 - 08:53 PM:	#9
But how did Jango know Xan would fail to assassinate Amidala? OR was that the point?

Paul
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Posted 05/27/02 - 11:52 PM:	#10
He may not have known she'd fail -- in fact, when he shot her he didn't know for sure that she'd failed to kill Padme, only that the Jedi were after her -- but he probably thought there was a strong chance she'd attract the attention of the Jedi either way. Remember, Chancellor Palpatine was the one who insisted that Padme allow him to assign Jedi to protect her, and suggested Obi-Wan. Palpatine had made certain that there would be Jedi there near Padme to sense it when the assassin made the attempt, and he probably also gave the instruction to use the probe droid to try to kill her, so he could easily anticipate the Jedi trying to follow the probe back to where it came from.
_____________________ "If a statement is made, it is to be confronted with the totality of existing statements. If it agrees with them, it is joined to them; if it does not agree, it is called 'untrue' and rejected; or the existing complex of statements of science is modified so that the new statement can be incorporated." - Otto Neurath

Last_of_the_Firsts
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Posted 05/28/02 - 09:30 PM:	#11
Originally posted by Paul [[[ more spoilers ]]] Originally posted by Just call me cheeze! I saw episode 2: attack of the clones the other day, and although the plot wasn't incredibly deep, Plus the masterful way in which he set up the clone army 10 years earlier . I don't think it was Palpatine who commisioned the army I think it was the Sith Master before him while Palpatine was an apprentice. The name of the master who the aliens said commisioned it was different. Unless of course he was just some jedi Palpatine manipulated, I don't know how old Palpitine is supposed to be.

Paul
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Posted 05/29/02 - 03:57 AM:	#12
Last_of_the_Firsts, the clone army was comissioned shortly after the events of The Phantom Menace. (10 years before AOTC.) Since Palpatine was a full-fledged Sith lord who had fully completed the training of his own apprentace (Darth Maul) in The Phantom Menace, he was obviously not an apprentace. The name the Kaminoes give is Sifo-Dyas. Yoda and Mace Windu then tell Obi-Wan that master Sifo-Dyas had already died years before them. The name was clearly a fake, and Jango Fett explains that he was hired by "a man named Tyranus" (which happens to be the Sith name of Count Dooku), so presumably that means Palpatine ordered Dooku to arrange the clone army and Dooku used the name Sifo-Dyas in order to make it look like he was associated with the Republic.
_____________________ "If a statement is made, it is to be confronted with the totality of existing statements. If it agrees with them, it is joined to them; if it does not agree, it is called 'untrue' and rejected; or the existing complex of statements of science is modified so that the new statement can be incorporated." - Otto Neurath

HVD
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Posted 05/29/02 - 10:38 AM:	#13
Palpatine's sith name is Darth sidious sidious could be a contraction of sido-dyas. Maybe palpatine was a jedi, who faked his death so he could turn sith, and became a politcian

kaiser_soze
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Posted 05/30/02 - 11:29 AM:	#14
Palpatine was definatly not a registered Jedi, for example, in episode II Obi-Wan points out the manipulative capabilities of Palpatine to Anakin (who then denies it and says how he believes Palpatine is a great man) and because he could easily deduce the evil capabilities of Palpatine, were he to know of his capabilities as being a Jedi, and hence would have warned the other members of the coucil, which would in turn bring about a confrontation with Palpatine.

Quetzalcoatl
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Posted 07/06/02 - 01:10 AM:	#15
Hmm... I never really looked at Star Wars this way before. It adds a whole new depth to the series. Do you think that Lucas actually thought about all this when he created Star Wars or are we just looking a little to far into things? PS. Paul-Didn't Vader just revert to the light in the end? I didn't get the impression that he brought both of the sides of the force together like you suggest.

Paul
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Posted 07/08/02 - 06:03 PM:	#16
Lucas was inspired by Joseph Campbell's "The Hero With a Thousand Faces". Reading that is what made Star Wars come together for him (although he'd written one draft before then I believe). Campbell's book is probably the most famous one ever written on the nature of the monomyth... so yes, the monomyth was very much on Lucas' mind and monomyths do consciously create the structure where the external and internal are reflections. Anakin is "the chosen one". As Lucas has said a number of times, Anakin does in fact bring balance to the force in ROTJ just as the prophesy predicted. You have to see that the dark side is an embodiment of the living force, but the living force isn't actually evil, it only takes the form of evil as a reaction to the state of the galaxy. Qui-Gon was an example of the living force, and that's why he didn't work well with the Jedi council. Note in AOTC (especially in the script, the cut scenes) the numerous comparisons drawn between Qui-Gon and Count Dooku. Jocasta Nu tells Obi-Wan that Dooku was much like Qui-Gon. Dooku reminds Obi-Wan that he was Qui-Gon's master just as Qui-Gon was Obi-Wan's master... and Dooku argues that Qui-Gon would have joined his side. Dooku and Qui-Gon are very closely connected... they're two offshoots of the living force. It's also no coincidence that Count Dooku turns to the dark side around the same time Qui-Gon dies. The "good" representative of the living force has failed, now a more sinister version must react and emerge to try to bring order. Thus Dooku (previously having been Qui-Gon like) leaves the Jedi order and becomes the new apprentice of the dark side. By AOTC this is the state of the force: Cosmic force - A bunch of Jedi sitting in a room on Coruscant talking philosophy while the galaxy crumbles around them, unable to see the future and blindly doing the bidding of the Supreme Chancellor. All they know how to do anymore is follow orders... they're like Obi-Wan when he tells Anakin they aren't supposed to investigate who the murderer was -- they follow the letter of the law rather than the spirit. Living force - Seizing the moment, manipulating, putting own ambition ahead of the good of the people, bringing "the new order" to the galaxy. Neither of these is a decent option, each has half of what a healthy person needs -- balance is needed. Anakin brings the force into balance by managing to bring the living force back to a more healthy form, and through his son (who shares this balance by confronting the dark side in ROTJ) the Jedi can be reborn without the old imbalance and conflict. With balance restored, there should no longer be a Qui-Gon vs. the council type of disparity.
_____________________ "If a statement is made, it is to be confronted with the totality of existing statements. If it agrees with them, it is joined to them; if it does not agree, it is called 'untrue' and rejected; or the existing complex of statements of science is modified so that the new statement can be incorporated." - Otto Neurath

Lukesky520
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Posted 07/14/02 - 07:45 PM:	#17
Just to put in my two cents about Star Wars, the greatest movie series ever (Dur, my name is LukeSky). Has anyone caught the political connections within it? I saw episode II and was enlightened. Think of it this way, early to mid 20th century politics. Remember how everything bad is happening with the trade federation, they also mention the commerse guilds, too? Well, let that represent the workers. Who's already thinking of Russia, yep? We'll make them the communists. Now, take what happened, Palpaltine becoming CHANCELOR and being given COMPLETE POWER. WHY? because of fear of the communists. Anyone think of this as how Hitler came to power? because it is. Now the senate, or Germans, start to get these clones, people with a common way of thinking, hmm...sounds like the NAZI's huh. And then they are Stormtroopers...the NAZI SS were stormtroopers too. Well, to top it all off we got the Rebel Alliance, who break away from the NAZI's, the Allies as opposed to the Axis powers. Anyone else think of this after episode II? I hope so...

Paul
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Posted 07/15/02 - 12:03 AM:	#18
I hadn't thought of that, but I guess it fits. Certainly Lucas did intend to say that fear is a powerful tool of evil and that the desire for order causes people to let themselves be rulled over by an opressive dictator, and Germany was one example of that. Part of a speech by Amidala in a cut scene: "Wake up, Senators... you must wake up! If you offer the separatists violence, they can only show us violence in return! Many will lose their lives. All will lose their freedom. This decision could very well destroy the very foundation of our great Republic. I pray you do not let fear push you into a disastrous decision." I'd noticed some of the other political connections though. You can see Lucas is rather anti-Republican from the parallels he draws. First, the name of Nute Gunray is supposedly derived from Gingrich and Reagan (Raygun)... and of course it's connecting them with Gunray being a pathetic bumbling puppet figurehead representing corporate interests and thoroughly controlled by them. Then there's Valorum. The Phantom Menace script was likely being written around the time of Clinton's impeachment, and here we have Chancellor Valorum being, as Palpatine puts it, "mired by baseless accusations of corruption". Here's Palpatine's quote: "If I may say so, Your Majesty, the Chancellor has little real power... he is mired down by baseless accusations of corruption. A manufactured scandal surrounds him. The bureaucrats are in charge now." Valorum's political enemies in the senate have focused all their energies on attacking his moral character. The senate now spends it's time arguing about Valorum's personal life. Says Palpatine: "The Republic is not what it once was. The Senate is full of greedy, squabbling delegates who are only looking out for themselves and their home systems. There is no interest in the common good... no civility, only politics... it's disgusting." Next, we have the impeachment. Amidala calls for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Valorum to kick him out of office. The senate votes to impeach Valorum, and then we see who the next leader is. As a reaction against the supposed corruption of Valorum, we have the outpouring of support for Palpatine as the next chancellor: a kindly old man -- a man of character, with a spotless record. A man of action and compassion. A man who suffers from his entire world being held as a prisoner of war by the trade federation. (Remind anyone of John McCain yet?) Then there's AOTC, which has some strange parallels which can't have been entirely intentional since it was written before the stuff happened... but no doubt the general version of the warning was intentional. Anyhow, we begin the movie with a terrorist attack on the capital city. The person responsible for the attack is a member of an elite group (force power elite vs. oil elite) and a decade ago became fed up with the complacent nature of the Jedi and questioned the morality of the Jedi order. This person headed off into the desert (Geonosis) and began making pacts with tribal lords, getting groups and planets to join his separatist movement which would fight the corruption of the republic. He made use of his considerable powers (the force in this case, instead of money) to further his cause, and began mounting terrorist operations in protest against the interference of the Republic in the affairs of worlds he'd brought to his side. Finally, he's topping it off with a direct attack -- a terrorist attack on the capital city, attempting to kill Senator Amidala. (A certain member of the Bin Laden family got fed up with the complacency of his family/country, took his billions of dollars and headed off into the desert, and built himself an army claiming to be a supporter of the common people against governments that have become immoral.) In the Republic, we have our Chancellor telling everyone to be wary of future attacks and assigning Jedi bodyguards... and more importantly, taking advantage of the situation to build up the military. The chancellor then takes advantage of an "emergency situation" on Geonosis to get himself granted emergency powers -- powers he uses to create the army of the republic that go off to the desert (Geonosis) to combat the army which is protecting the terrorist leader. The separatists (terrorist supporters, and barbaric people who commonly stage public executions in arenas that curiously resemble soccer stadiums) are driven out of their desert home, but their leader escapes. No one knows quite where the terrorist leader is, they're too busy calling the operation "a victory" as Obi-Wan does... I suppose George Bush probably doesn't like Star Wars much, considering it implies he's an evil tyrant who's secretly playing both sides in order to build up his power. (Though really, I think Palpatine was more of a McCain image.)
_____________________ "If a statement is made, it is to be confronted with the totality of existing statements. If it agrees with them, it is joined to them; if it does not agree, it is called 'untrue' and rejected; or the existing complex of statements of science is modified so that the new statement can be incorporated." - Otto Neurath

Lukesky520
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Posted 07/15/02 - 10:11 AM:	#19
By Paul : (Though really, I think Palpatine was more of a McCain image.) LOL that's an even greater way of putting it. Thanks for all of the different information you posted, for I'd never heard of those interpritations before. People argue whether books are better than movies or vice versa. I think that the reason that Start Wars is so great is that it has so much in it, just like a book, that you cannot complain (except, maybe, about Jar Jar...)

MatthewbCurry
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Posted 05/06/08 - 09:37 PM:	#20
Star Wars is so epic. There is a lot of drama, civilian and military drama. It's quite sanitary, perhaps too sanitary. For instance, I do not think there is a single toilet in the entire series. Also, I do not recall a scene of inventors: no people/aliens sitting in a school or home, designing a new weapon or another technology. Overall it is a decent series though. It's a good one for promoting the idea for needing vehicles for inter-planetary vehicles (alternative: what if we can just teleport to another planet?). Use this URL: http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/226005/ it explains well what I was thinking as well. Edited by MatthewbCurry on 05/07/08 - 09:51 PM

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