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Society and the individual

Hwwaaahhhhh
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Posted 05/22/04 - 09:29 PM:	#1
Have you ever noticed how the individual is a slave to society? Why else would we get jobs, buy expensive things, get wasted, and blast Eminem on our radios? Because we're controlled by society, even when we're born from the womb. We're thrown into whatever class the mother and father are in and forced to live the spoiled brat, the skater punk, or the genius quarterback. We do the traditional freshman hazing, Prom, saturday night clubs, marriage, children, retirement, religion, etc. Take a moment now and categorize yourself... be honest... still think you're some rebellious anomaly? Then you're probably too naive to even understand. But then there is the mutual relationship between slave and master that kicks in to answer the question, "But what else would an individual do?". Well, as slaves of society, we are also dependant on her. For it is almost impossible and impractical to remove a person completely out of society.

AKG
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Posted 05/22/04 - 09:49 PM:	#2
Most people are stupid, culture tells them what to value, how to behave, how to live. For most people, this is why they buy expensive things, get wasted, blast Eminem, takepart in hazing, go to Prom, go clubbing, get married, have kids, or take up religion. Society is good for two reasons, work and women. Work means I can sustain myself without having to really work hard or doing something I don't like, like sustainance farming or doing something like that. Women are good for obvious reasons. However, I don't know who you're calling naive. There are a large majority of people who never realize the above, but I would think (it's a safe guess) that most of the people here will have come to that realization about society/culture. However, I should add that this realization is nothing special. The fact that you're not so naive doesn't make you wise or mature, it only separates you from the painfully ignorant "masses."
"The only reason we die... is because we accept it as an inevitability." -- Stewie "To enslave nuance to dogma is folly." -- Lord Hillyer

RandomPrecision
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Posted 05/22/04 - 09:52 PM:	#3
Hwwaaahhhhh wrote: Have you ever noticed how the individual is a slave to society? I don't think we have to be. I think of the concept of overman as realizing this, and overcoming society. wah wrote: Why else would we get jobs, buy expensive things, get wasted, and blast Eminem on our radios? I don't do any of those, although I should probably consider the first. wah wrote: Because we're controlled by society, even when we're born from the womb. Or maybe it's so we can get money, get property, have fun, and be entertained, respectively. wah wrote: We're thrown into whatever class the mother and father are in and forced to live the spoiled brat, the skater punk, or the genius quarterback. We do the traditional freshman hazing, Prom, saturday night clubs, marriage, children, retirement, religion, etc. Take a moment now and categorize yourself... be honest... still think you're some rebellious anomaly? Then you're probably too naive to even understand. I didn't really think of myself as being an anomaly, but I don't do any of the four activities you listed, I'm not a brat, punk, quarterback, I don't haze freshman, I don't go to Saturday clubs, I'm not married, I don't have children, I haven't retired, and I'm not religious. The only thing of the above that I've done is prom. That makes me "controlled by society"? I think not. Furthermore, why would those things mean society is controlling us? Like having children? That's not being controlled by society, that's procreating. If we all free ourselves from your "society", we will cease to exist as a species. Retiring? If anything, that seems like giving society less control over you. It's a natural thing to do after working, that is, to stop working. That doesn't mean we are slaves to an immoral system or anything. wah wrote: But then there is the mutual relationship between slave and master that kicks in to answer the question, "But what else would an individual do?". Well, as slaves of society, we are also dependant on her. For it is almost impossible and impractical to remove a person completely out of society. You state that every person is dependent on society because it is difficult to remove a person from society. Non sequitur.

Hwwaaahhhhh
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Posted 05/22/04 - 11:08 PM:	#4
I didn't really think of myself as being an anomaly, but I don't do any of the four activities you listed, I'm not a brat, punk, quarterback, I don't haze freshman, I don't go to Saturday clubs, I'm not married, I don't have children, I haven't retired, and I'm not religious. I mentioned a laundry list of things to generalize popular or rountine actions. I'm not going to sit here and list everything a person does. Don't think that just because you don't do what i above mentioned, that you're not led on by society. You state that every person is dependent on society because it is difficult to remove a person from society. Non sequitur. Because 2 things are inseperable, they are dependant on each other. Or maybe it's so we can get money, get property, have fun, and be entertained, respectively. Why do you need money? And property? Why fun? It because society deems these things necessary for survival. However, I don't know who you're calling naive. There are a large majority of people who never realize the above Yes, that is who i'm talking about.

AKG
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Posted 05/22/04 - 11:21 PM:	#5
Hwwaaahhhhh wrote: Why do you need money? And property? Why fun? It because society deems these things necessary for survival. Where will you live, what will you eat, and how will you shelter yourself otherwise? Why fun? Because it's fun. It's enjoyable. Yes, that is who i'm talking about. Why? What's your point?
"The only reason we die... is because we accept it as an inevitability." -- Stewie "To enslave nuance to dogma is folly." -- Lord Hillyer

softtarget
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1 of 1 people found this post helpful Posted 05/22/04 - 11:33 PM:	#6
I am married, I have children, I work, I get paid, occasionaly listen to Eminen, and hope to someday retire. Of course these are artificial norms that exist as a result of the society that I was born into. But then again, so is language, art, and this computer that we communicate through. What is really naive here is not the identification of societys role in shaping the individual, but the notion that an individual who buys completely into these illusions is any more or less than someone who sees right through them. Tell me, oh sage, what do you propose? And please refrain from communicating via written language, as I see that it is just another illusion. You do not have to accept it. You do not have to conform to it. You don't really have to do anything at all, but go into the forest, and escape from the madness. I'm quite satisfied with my conformity, so long as I have the mental capacity to challenge the values of the society around me, and seek some form of happiness. But in the end, you too will conform. It is inevitable. Just try and understand those around you. What else is there? Do not be so naive to assume that because you see beyond the veil, that you have gained any unique perspective.
softtarget a journey to nothingness

Objectivist
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Posted 05/22/04 - 11:39 PM:	#7
ya i understand completely what you are saying. but i do have one question, who, if anyone, couldn't be catergorized as a slave in our society? (maybe we are all slaves, just curious to see how u respond) I think that the word slave isn't portraying what cha wanna say, but maybe it is. It seems to me to make more sense if you said that we are all manipulated by our society to some extent. For everyone coudl be considered a "slave" under your definition, since we are all somewhat dependent on society since we live in it. randomprecision wrote: I don't do any of those, although I should probably consider the first. LOL! randomprecision wrote: Or maybe it's so we can get money, get property, have fun, and be entertained, respectively. Yea but, why do we need so much money and so much property? I mean, why follow the path in which so many people have already taking? Wheres the fun in that? Wheres the fun in predictability (other than maybe u predicted it). I dunno, i tend to view society as one big fuckin joke. For instance, when i watch police on TV talk about chasing bad guys, all i can think of is back to the old days when i was young playing cops and robbers. Except this time its considered "serious" and the cosstombs arent cosstombs anymore, they are suppose to be serious too. But in reality, or at least in my paradigm view, they are all just cute lil clows in costumes dancing around pretending to have some profound importance on the world...and heck, maybe they do, maybe they dont =P. But personally, its no different than when i was young, just on a greater scale....this is a nice segue into my whole "Surpressed Maturity Theory"..but dats another topic This is just what i see..... I live close to a h.s. and every year there are a few graduations held at this huge stadium for the high schoolers. And all i can think of is...how..how fricken lame! A buncha cliche speeches that talk about superficial bs (except i must admit, some were pretty good, but it was defitly a rareity). The speeches' only real purpose is to prolong the graduation to make it seem more significant and sentimental. Then u have thousands of supporters in the circus ring cheering on their child/loved one for another "amazing accomplishment" that everyone and there mom has already done. I tend to think of almost all ceramonies as retardations spawning from the lack of time for masturbation--After all, masturbation is enligtenment. Of course, society enslaves us with time...that is, with some gay circle with 2 tickers that tick to fukin much, but hey, i only live for the instant.

AKG
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Posted 05/22/04 - 11:56 PM:	#8
Objectivist For instance, when i watch police on TV talk about chasing bad guys, all i can think of is back to the old days when i was young playing cops and robbers. If you were to, say, be attacked by someone, and had a cop save you, you'd be pretty appreciative and less amused by how serious a policeman may take his job. You don't seem totally hopeless, but brilliant quips like: "masturbation is enligtenment," and "...that is, with some gay circle with 2 tickers that tick to fukin much, but hey, i only live for the instant," will not get you taken seriously. I'm not going to do anything, don't be surprised if you find yourself banned some time soon. And, although you make a sound (yet trivial) point that a lot of things like high school graduation ceremonies are superficial and speeches are nothing more than stupid rhetoric, how much better do you think "society enslaves us with time..." is?
"The only reason we die... is because we accept it as an inevitability." -- Stewie "To enslave nuance to dogma is folly." -- Lord Hillyer

AKG
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Posted 05/22/04 - 11:58 PM:	#9
softtarget Don't you think there is a relevant difference between 1) common human forms of interaction and human technology, and 2) cultural/pop-cultural traditions, practices, and values? Using a computer and seeing marriage as a necessary stepping stone in one's life are two very different things.
"The only reason we die... is because we accept it as an inevitability." -- Stewie "To enslave nuance to dogma is folly." -- Lord Hillyer

Objectivist
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Posted 05/23/04 - 12:22 AM:	#10
AKG wrote: If you were to, say, be attacked by someone, and had a cop save you, you'd be pretty appreciative and less amused by how serious a policeman may take his job. possibly, but id see the attack as an amusement (after the incident of course, for i cant deny my instincts), so then maybe id take the consequence as an amusement too. akg wrote: You don't seem totally hopeless Thank you God, my mom thinks im cute tho. I do enjoy the games we play depicting superiority and inferiority however. akg wrote: And, although you make a sound (yet trivial) point that a lot of things like high school graduation ceremonies are superficial and speeches are nothing more than stupid rhetoric, how much better do you think "society enslaves us with time..." is? I dunno, to be honest, i thought my whole time critique was a sick and pervese interpretation of a human invention, hopefully it doesnt result in a suspension. But maybe it will be food for thought for some, or maybe its just a trivial redundancy since we all have thoughta bout it before, i dunno =/ The whole thought itself was new to me...or would it be old? guess it depends on which paradigm of time u adhere to.

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