So, what's freedom, again?: Philosophy Forums

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So, what's freedom, again?

Dan_Browne
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Posted 03/25/04 - 07:00 PM:	#1
I understand that those of us living under western governments have the privilidge to be residing in a free nation. But is our freedom free? We have Taxes, we have brutal police, we have society. And I realise that these things are very small compared to that of other lands. free·dom - The condition of being free of restraints. I want to not be a part of the society I live and I would rather be as independant as i possibly can. But it seems that we always have to be making money and we always have to be giving that money to someone else. I'd appreciate hearing what everyone else thinks freedom really is.
There's no government like no government.

top mosker
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Posted 03/25/04 - 08:45 PM:	#2
What we have in America is hardly freedom. The scary part is that we are raised to believe we do. Maybe you aren't bothered by the freedom that is restricted. Maybe you don't really care about the drug war, or the lethal use of force, or tax reform, but these are things that we have come to accept as necessity, when they are the foundations of a totalitarian government masquerading as a democracy. The fascists don't call themselves fascists.
"...The eternal charade of the middle-class intellectuals - Behold my wings! Freedom! Flight! - but you don't actually expect me to jump off that cliff, do you?" - Tom Wolfe The Electric Kool Aid Acid Test

Alan
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Posted 03/25/04 - 08:52 PM:	#3
top mosker wrote: What we have in America is hardly freedom. The scary part is that we are raised to believe we do. I'd cautiously agree with you, but could you say how it could be more free?
"If you wait for luck to turn up, life becomes very boring." -Mikhail Tal

Socrastein
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Posted 03/25/04 - 08:55 PM:	#4
What we have in America is hardly freedom. The scary part is that we are raised to believe we do. "None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free."
"The time has come for people of reason to say enough is enough. Religious faith discourages independent thought, it's devisive, and it's dangerous." -Richard Dawkins

Gassendi1
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Posted 03/25/04 - 09:59 PM:	#5
Socrastein wrote: "None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free." ____________________________________________________ The scary part is that you seem to think that you can live in a civilization without any restraints at all. And, of course, that you think that freedom is absolute and not relative. You ought to try living in places like Saudi Arabia, or China, or Syria, for comparison with what we have in the United States.

softtarget
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Posted 03/25/04 - 10:13 PM:	#6
To paraphrase Ben Franklin: If you sacrifice freedom for safety, you shall have neither freedom nor safety.
softtarget a journey to nothingness

Gassendi1
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Posted 03/25/04 - 10:21 PM:	#7
softtarget wrote: To paraphrase Ben Franklin: If you sacrifice freedom for safety, you shall have neither freedom nor safety. ______________________________________________________ Well, it seems to me that when we have traffic laws we are sacrificing freedom (driving as we please) for safety. But we could not drive safely without traffic laws, I think you would agree. Or, do you think that in the interests of freedom we should do away with traffic lights? It helps to think concretely by examples, and forget about abstractions.

top mosker
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Posted 03/25/04 - 10:32 PM:	#8
Alan wrote: I'd cautiously agree with you, but could you say how it could be more free? Freedom would be the abscence of unnecessary laws. Our judicial system is downright rediculous. I refer to Tacitus for his opinion on the matter: "The more corrupt the republic, the more numerous the laws." It takes entire libraries to hold all the laws we must obey. You draw the conclusions. Freedom would give the minority a voice. See Thoreau for his opinions on the apathy of the majority. I refer to A. Hoffman: "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." We lock those that speak out against the government in institutions as criminals or insane men. And then we forget about them because the state tells us they are criminal and insane. No one wants to associate with a nutcase or a criminal... Freedom would be government that has to answer to the people and was limited in size and especially power. We have no way to change matters because of the two political parties that have put a stranglehold on the American psyche. I refer to Jefferson: "Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now." The bi-party system allows for those with power to raise issues instead of those that are intended to wield the power: the citizens of the United States. We have choice a or b. Where are the other 24 letters? Where are OUR letters? Fuck democrats and fuck republicans. They are different ends of the same beast. (I'll let you decide which one gets to be the poopchute.) NONE of these issues are ever raised by our politicians because the people trust them to make the important descisions. And with trust, comes totalitarianism. For too long, we have stood idly by, while they reach ever so subtle towards complete control of our minds. Our apathy has stood for too long. There is no changing the system, only scrapping it for one based on freedom and the bill of rights. Things like the PATRIOT act don't bother me because I see it as a mere symptom of the real problem - power. Take the power out of government and you have freedom.
"...The eternal charade of the middle-class intellectuals - Behold my wings! Freedom! Flight! - but you don't actually expect me to jump off that cliff, do you?" - Tom Wolfe The Electric Kool Aid Acid Test

softtarget
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Posted 03/25/04 - 10:32 PM:	#9
Gassendi1 wrote: It helps to think concretely by examples, and forget about abstractions. Point taken. However I do feel as though retoric serves to confuse the terms "safety and freedom" to the point that they are merged. That, I believe, is the point Franklin was trying to make. Here's another forgetable paraphrased abstraction by D. Eisonhower: If it is absolute safety a nation strives for, then it's people might as well live in prison. At least there they will have a roof over their heads and regular meals.
softtarget a journey to nothingness

top mosker
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Posted 03/25/04 - 10:36 PM:	#10
Gassendi1 wrote: ______________________________________________________ Well, it seems to me that when we have traffic laws we are sacrificing freedom (driving as we please) for safety. But we could not drive safely without traffic laws, I think you would agree. Or, do you think that in the interests of freedom we should do away with traffic lights? It helps to think concretely by examples, and forget about abstractions. It helps to think what really is at stake here, and forget your learned ideas. We could drive plenty safe without traffic laws. It's called 'personal responsibility.' You don't drive too fast so that you don't injure someone or yourself. You stop at intersections so you don't get in an accident. When you have laws to think for you, what does that leave your mind to do?
"...The eternal charade of the middle-class intellectuals - Behold my wings! Freedom! Flight! - but you don't actually expect me to jump off that cliff, do you?" - Tom Wolfe The Electric Kool Aid Acid Test

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