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Separation of money and state
should legal tender be abolished?

Separation of money and state

keda
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Posted 08/05/09 - 06:04 AM: Subject: Separation of money and state	#1
Legal tender is basically the concept that a particular form of payment of a debt cannot be refused which in turn means that all debts not contracted without this form of payment, are without recourse when such payment is offered. It is a law exemption against the debtor in this case, but in practice it means people are forced to lend in terms of this particular form of payment, and that whosoever has the power to create this form of payment, has unlimited credit. The federal reserve, a quasi governmental institution consisting of a cartel of private banks lends money to the government at interest, a debt which is mathematically impossible to pay back but must grow without bounds. Since they create this fiat currency out of thin air, and at the moment no more fractional reserve constraints apply, the federal reserve can in principle create unlimited money causing hyper inflation which will halt the economy like in the Weimar republic. This can be stopped however if the bill HR 1207 to audit the Federal Reserve is passed (it has 282 co-sponsors and the senate bill S 604 has 23.) The question is however what the Federal Reserve should be replaced with or if it should be nationalised and limited in some ways or if gold should be made legal tender instead as per the constitution, or if as I have been thinking about lately, have legal tender abolished completely? Personally, I think the last option would be the best one since it would allow multiple currencies to freely compete and allow the people to choose what to put their trust in, rather than be forced to have a particular form of currency that some can take advantage of.
All about making money Free Europe Now How to fix your country In thought, men distance themselves from nature in order thus imaginatively to present it to themselves--but only in order to determine how it is to be dominated - Adorno and Horkheimer

swstephe
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Posted 08/05/09 - 08:18 AM:	#2
I'm not seeing how it can be "stopped". Let's say this bill passes and there is a call to audit the Federal Reserve. Then lets say the submit, (since they are a private entity and foreign banks are out of US jurisdiction). Then the auditors are all honest, (how about a few million dollars to make this audit look good). Then you find something that is so horrifically bad that the government has no choice but to act. But wait, the Federal Reserve sent back a memo. Seems they are calling in all those loans they financed. They are also marking US treasury bonds as "toxic". You didn't realize? Debt implies ownership. The Federal Reserve owns the company and many other countries which provide interest. I'm guessing the bill will pass and they will submit to an audit and the audit will come out rosy just to silence criticism against the Federal Reserve system and help to restore the already failing economy which is based on all that debt. It is far too late to go back to gold. There is simply not enough gold in the world to match with currency. The moment you were to declare such an event, a gold producing African country would be so ridiculously wealthy with gold suddenly revalued at ludicrous levels. Perhaps you could back currency by something far more common, like aluminum, (it would really help recycling take off). I don't think abolishing currency solves the problem that it is backed mostly by debt. First, you have to blow away the debt. That means a big collapse in virtual resources. This debt is created by usury -- charging excessive interests. If you could ban usury, the way that it was banned universally by most cultures just a few centuries ago, you could probably solve what got us into this situation in the first place. I recall an analogy with islanders trading marbles. Once you factored in interest payments, there weren't enough marbles to go around, so the economy froze until they switched to fiat. Then the economy flourishes until the debt bubbles collapse. I believe, about a hundred years ago, all currency was produced by banks, so in a way, they were competing. You didn't like how currency was being backed by one bank, you could switch to another. Then it was nationalized by the treasury department. I think future technology might move away from actual paper and coins and just put everything on computerized credits automatically, and that's if everything improves eventually. Otherwise, hyperinflation just means that eventually cash and gold will resynchronized and then you can switch
Ethics is the measuring of morality. Morality is the measuring of good. Good is the measuring of benefit. Benefit is the measure of values.

keda
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Posted 08/05/09 - 11:31 AM:	#3
Well I would say that odious debt isn't enforcable. It could be stopped simply by passing HR 833 as soon as The chicanery of Fed has been revealed. The congress would then be able to replace it with some alternative form of currency that would involve no interest, which would be a great step in the right direction but still not something I would prefer. Personally I don't advocate the gold standard, but would eliminate legal tender completely. If gold happens to be the best form of currency then the market should be able to prove that by itself. If some alternative shows itself to be better, it should also be proven by the market. However I find it odd that you say the physical quantity of gold in existence should make any difference. The less there is in existence, the more it is worth and consequently less would be needed to store the same amount of wealth, so theoretically the physical quantity is irrelevant, except that if it is too large, in which case it becomes impractical to use, which is exactly why aluminium as a currency is a ridiculous idea. Also the idea that gold would be valued much differently even if we turned to the gold standard, I don't see any reason for, but if this would be the case then so much the better to turn to the market solution.
All about making money Free Europe Now How to fix your country In thought, men distance themselves from nature in order thus imaginatively to present it to themselves--but only in order to determine how it is to be dominated - Adorno and Horkheimer

Seamus
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Posted 08/16/09 - 02:37 AM:	#4
Amen to HR 833 and 1207. I agree that people should be able to trade in any currency they wish. The only issue is, there needs to be a standard with which the government collects taxes. Now, I already know from your post that you must advocate low to no taxes, but if the government is going to collect any tax in any form (be it from income to usury tax) there needs to be some standard currency that they use. This would be, even if not official, the de facto "legal" currency.
Religious and philosophical beliefs are, indeed, as dangerous as fire, and nothing can take from them that beauty of danger. - G.K. Chesterton

keda
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Posted 08/16/09 - 08:36 AM:	#5
Hmm, are you sure about that? Is it not possible for the market to determine the rates at which various currencies trade at and then tax could be collected based on these rates? I do advocate btw at least a minimum of tax for law enforcement and national defence.
All about making money Free Europe Now How to fix your country In thought, men distance themselves from nature in order thus imaginatively to present it to themselves--but only in order to determine how it is to be dominated - Adorno and Horkheimer

Seamus
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Posted 08/16/09 - 10:24 AM:	#6
Well I suppose in theory you're right, but I don't think it would work to well, and the rates of exchange have to be reassesed too often. I wouldn't be against trying it though
Religious and philosophical beliefs are, indeed, as dangerous as fire, and nothing can take from them that beauty of danger. - G.K. Chesterton

brainpharte
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Posted 08/16/09 - 05:18 PM:	#7
keda wrote: ... a debt which is mathematically impossible to pay back but must grow without bounds. Could you explain this? Anyway, I don't even use currency, I use magic points of some kind. Somebody somewhere keeps track of how many magic points I am awarded and am able to recirculate, which I do by pointing and clicking, or magnetic strips, or keypads.
"I don't see much sense in that," said Rabbit. "No," said Pooh humbly, "there isn't. But there was going to be when I began it. It's just that something happened to it along the way."

keda
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Posted 08/19/09 - 06:17 AM:	#8
brainpharte wrote: Could you explain this? With no interest, the debt could only be paid back by taking all the money out of circulation. With interest, there is not enough money to pay back the interest.
All about making money Free Europe Now How to fix your country In thought, men distance themselves from nature in order thus imaginatively to present it to themselves--but only in order to determine how it is to be dominated - Adorno and Horkheimer

unrealist42
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Posted 08/24/09 - 05:19 PM:	#9
If all the money in circulation is aggregated and compared to all current debt there is a difference close to the interest rate. There is never enough money to settle all debts. When the money supply fails to grow debtors will default.

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