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Sartre and Lenin
Is consciousness of material or idea?

Sartre and Lenin

cosscos
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Posted 08/10/09 - 03:54 AM: Subject: Sartre and Lenin	#1
Sartre said, " the existence precedes the essence." However Lenin said, "the consciousness reflects existence. Sartre's axiom goes against Descartes', since it turns out, 'I am, therefore I think'. In the meantime Lenin's axiom goes for Descartes' axiom " I think therefore I am." In light of those views, Sartre's consciousness is of idea, but on the other hand Lenin's and Descartes' consciousness is of material. The bottom line is, is the consciousness made of idea"? or made from material?

sheps
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Posted 08/10/09 - 05:35 AM:	#2
Lenin was definitely a materialist, and I'd say that Sartre was too from what you've said. 'The existence precedes the essence' proves that he's more interested in particulars here on earth than lofty ideas about Metaphysics, etc. Lenin would undoubtedly have said that your consciousness reflects the oppressed nature in which you live, under the ruling class of the epoch. In other words, I reckon he's saying the view that we all look at things through a 'coloured lens,' a bit like Kant. I think Lenin, being to an extent a Marxist, was definitely a materialist who would have believed that consciousness is dependant on your social situation and your 'cultural identity.' Not sure about Sartre or Descartes though, I'm not well versed in philosophy of mind. It comes down to whether you think consciousness or existence comes first, or whether they come about simultaneously.
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unenlightened
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Posted 08/10/09 - 05:36 AM:	#3
I don't see a conflict; existence must likewise precede its reflection, not so? Your bottom line is, I hope, mal-formed. You are asking after the essence of an essence. Perhaps one might say that consciousness is the relationship of idea and material (and don't then ask what relationship is made of.).
...most of our actions are the result of the past, or according to a future ideal. That's not action, that is just conformity. J Krishnamurti "Philosophy, to the Philistine, is an evolutionary process, watched over by some sort of brisk dynamic Providence, and culminating in the supreme insight of modern thought." John Cowper Powys

sheps
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Posted 08/10/09 - 07:33 AM:	#4
unenlightened wrote: I don't see a conflict; existence must likewise precede its reflection, not so? Your bottom line is, I hope, mal-formed. You are asking after the essence of an essence. Perhaps one might say that consciousness is the relationship of idea and material (and don't then ask what relationship is made of.). Yeah, I thought that Lenin seemed further away from Descartes, if anything.
The Midnight Sun Never Sets.

Vigotski
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Posted 08/10/09 - 10:52 AM:	#5
Would be better: ''Sartre and Marx''.

cosscos
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Posted 08/10/09 - 09:33 PM:	#6
Here is an illustration of someone's autobiography.. A boy of the Luo tribe is beging on the village. Begging was unknown to him before city people had told him, "You are poor." The boy started begging since the consciousness had been built up by either the idea 'poor' or the matterial 'poor'. cc Edited by cosscos on 08/10/09 - 10:03 PM

cosscos
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Posted 08/10/09 - 09:35 PM:	#7
Thank you, Unenlightened. I was even more stupid than what I am now. cc Edited by cosscos on 08/10/09 - 10:04 PM

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