Relationship between body and mind.: Philosophy Forums

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Relationship between body and mind.

Savage02
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Posted 04/27/08 - 03:47 AM: Subject: Relationship between body and mind.	#1
I've never studied philosophy (it isn't taught at my school) and have read very little - so please forgive me if what I'm about to ask sounds somewhat ridiculous. Imagine that a child is born without the ability to sense anything whatsoever; not only are its five primary senses defunct but it is also unable to experience bodily impulses such as hunger, fatigue, desire etc. Now, assume that such a being is nourished and maintained by others so as to exist in a state of good physical health. My question is this: could such a being have or ever develop a mind? I would assume (perhaps wrongly) that for something to have a mind, it would need to be able to either think or feel - not often; just one thought or feeling would be evidence enough for the existence of a mind. Could the being I have described above have even a single thought or feeling? And does this have any implications regarding the relationship between body and mind? I have my own ideas concerning this last question, but I'll wait for some replies before continuing. Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Edited by Savage02 on 04/27/08 - 08:12 AM

unenlightened
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Posted 04/27/08 - 05:23 AM:	#2
Good question! It's fairly unimaginable to me, but let's look. If there are no senses at all, then I think there would be no contents as thought - it seems reasonable to say that thoughts must be about something. I wonder if there is a possibility that the child could come to a non-linguistic equivalent of Descartes' "I think therefore I am? " I rather think not. So then the question becomes 'Can there be a mind with no content?' Obviously, there can be no personality or identity, it would have to be 'generic mind' or 'universal mind'. There are those mystics who talk about the ending of thought, and it seems to be the ending of time as well (subjectively). If there is such a mind, it is very different to the chattering mind that is our normal life. Perhaps you should try emptying your mind and find out - or perhaps I should. But suppose at some point, by miracle or brain surgery, the senses are finally connected, and the child learns to speak, will they remember the timeless time of silence?
The observer is the observed. J Krishnamurti "Philosophy, to the Philistine, is an evolutionary process, watched over by some sort of brisk dynamic Providence, and culminating in the supreme insight of modern thought." John Cowper Powys

Wosret
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Posted 04/27/08 - 07:42 AM:	#3
No, I don't think so, it would be like a blank hard drive with zero software. Just a paper weight. This very issue has been raised by neurologists, and A.I. developers alike. Suggesting that it will not be possible to create a conscious computer, without also creating a body. The body is downplayed quite a lot when people think about consciousness, but researchers recently have been suggesting that you cannot have one without the other. Now this is something that I personally had not considered before reading about it, but it seems to make sense. In such a person as you describe, I highly doubt that the brain would develope significantly beyond the brain stem, regulating the body's organs and such. Though if now of it's sense organs worked, then I don't see how it could test connections in the brain during developement in the womb. Even if it did develope perfectly though, we respond to stimuli, without it, there would be nothing to react to. I doubt it would have any more cognition than a patato.
"I am Horo the Wise." - Horo the Wise.

yiming
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Posted 04/27/08 - 08:01 AM:	#4
I think you guys (Wosret and Unenlightened) are too tentative about answering Savage's question. I say categorically that Savage's hypothethical human being would not have a mind. And if senses can be activated, consciousness would naturally develop like that of a new-born child. So, Savage, what is the next question?

The Escapist
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Posted 04/27/08 - 08:53 AM:	#5
Savage02 wrote: Imagine that a child is born without the ability to sense anything whatsoever; not only are its five primary senses defunct but it is also unable to experience bodily impulses such as hunger, fatigue, desire etc. Now, assume that such a being is nourished and maintained by others so as to exist in a state of good physical health. My question is this: could such a being have or ever develop a mind? Hi Savage, You've said that this unfortunate child is unable to experience "desire etc.". We need to know what "etc" is in order to answer your question. Experiencing desire is at least as much a mental as a physical impulse. If your child can't experience any mental impulses, and has no sensory input, then it can hardly have a mind. But I would take it to the hospital anyway to get an expert opinion.
Putting someone else's smart arsed quote into your signature does not make you any smarter. - D.K

The Escapist
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Posted 04/27/08 - 09:07 AM:	#6
yiming wrote: And if senses can be activated, consciousness would naturally develop like that of a new-born child. Hi Yiming, A mouse has very sensitive whiskers. There is an area of the brain associated with the whiskers, and if the whiskers are cut off when the mouse is young, this area doesn't develop properly. I was amazed to learn that this area in the brain is physically laid out like the layout of the whiskers! .... .......
Putting someone else's smart arsed quote into your signature does not make you any smarter. - D.K

Savage02
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Posted 04/27/08 - 09:07 AM:	#7
Okay, reiteration and expansion... A human being comes into existence unable to experience anything through the senses, or feel impulses / desires. It is kept alive by others, who nourish and sustain it. Obviously, it would have no knowledge of being nourished or sustained. This being wouldn't know anything; it wouldn't even know that it didn't know anything. It would have no thoughts, since most, if not all thoughts are reducible to feelings, and it would be incapable of these. Those thoughts that are not reducible to feelings, I assume, may only be expressed in words, and my hypothetical being would know nothing of these. Therefore, this being would be incapable of thought or feeling. For a mind to be said to exist, one of either thought or feeling must surely be present, since the mind can only think and feel. My hypothetical being can do neither, therefore it has no mind. Why does it have no mind? Because of the limitations of it's body. The defects of this being's body renders it incapable of thought or feeling; incapable of having a mind. From my argument, which I'm certain you'll all pick countless holes in, we can conclude that there is a vitally important connection between mind and body. I may as well take the risk and say, that from my argument, we can conclude that mind depends on body. Or am I going horribly wrong here? ** And here? Edited by Savage02 on 04/27/08 - 09:12 AM

makerowner
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Posted 04/27/08 - 10:36 AM:	#8
yiming wrote: And if senses can be activated, consciousness would naturally develop like that of a new-born child. I don't know about the senses in particular, but with language, if the child is not exposed to it during a key time-period, they generally can never learn it properly. There have been cases of children locked in the basement by their parents who were never (or rarely) exposed to language, and once they were freed, were unable to learn to speak, or at least couldn't grasp various structures that come naturally to the rest of us. I would imagine that the senses might be similar, but I could be wrong. There have been people born deaf or blind who've had medical procedures to restore their senses; I wonder if anyone has studied them to see if their perceptions differ from ours in any interesting ways? Edited by makerowner on 04/27/08 - 12:38 PM. Reason: typo
The grounding-attunement of the first beginning is deep wonder that beings are, that man himself is extant, extant in that which he is not.

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Posted 04/27/08 - 11:07 AM:	#9
The Escapist wrote: Hi Yiming, A mouse has very sensitive whiskers. There is an area of the brain associated with the whiskers, and if the whiskers are cut off when the mouse is young, this area doesn't develop properly. I was amazed to learn that this area in the brain is physically laid out like the layout of the whiskers! .... ....... This is what I alluded to in my post, I highly doubt a brain would even develope the required functions without the requires imput from the sense organs. So it would not only lack the imput from the outside world, but it would not have developed the necessarily facualties to process them if they were to become present at a later date.
"I am Horo the Wise." - Horo the Wise.

yiming
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Posted 04/27/08 - 01:55 PM:	#10
Savage argues that the mind depends on the body. Worset presumes that there is the cognitive process comprises of three parts: the sense organ, the brain and inputs from outside (stimuli). And, Escapist sees a connect between the sense organs (whiskers) and the brain. The three of you have impaired reasoning ability mainly because of your foundation in biology and physics. The search for truth must begin from ground zero. You cannot start an inquiry holding mouse whiskers or grope for a pair of ears just because your high school teacher said that it is your brain that is doing the thinking. Makerowner feels that if a child is not taught language (verbalized communication), it's ability in that regard is impaired. Lord Greystoke, aka Tarzan, didn't have trouble learning English after he was brought to London. Ok, he wasn't for real but one can see that it isn't a big deal learning to speak English unless one is a chimp.

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