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Reason for Creation at all
From God's view, WHY?

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Reason for Creation at all

Allhazred
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Posted 10/05/07 - 05:50 AM: Subject: Reason for Creation at all	#1
Something that has always fascinated me and that has never been explained in a reasonable way, is Why did God, or Allah or whomever decide to create the universe anyway. Anytime this has ever been touched upon by me in the past the answer has been: 'God created the universe because he loves us' which makes no sense, as we were not even created yet, it makes God sound like he has a bad case of dependancy.. Thoughts? Edited by Paul on 10/07/07 - 11:13 AM. Reason: grammar
_____________________ A lie told often enough becomes the truth. Vladimir Lenin your awareness of the whole is marred by your awareness of that which moves contrary to the whole - the sixth dimension Maybe... if you spend your life worrying... then the only way that your life will have meaning is if what you fear becomes real. - tagline from Sublime

PontificatingChauncy
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Posted 10/05/07 - 06:47 AM:	#2
Personal theory: God (if one exists) is by definition all-knowing, yes? But in order to practice philosophy, one must learn, wonder, must TRY to know things. Going off the common assumption that no sentient being can be satisfied without practicing philosophy; I assume that god (once again, supposing he exists) watches us for a vicarious sense of the 'wonder of discovery'. In short, watching this forum gets god off, so he had to create some people to man this forum, people to support them, and current events to spark their minds. Edited by Paul on 10/07/07 - 11:13 AM. Reason: spelling, spacing
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Allhazred
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Posted 10/05/07 - 09:42 AM:	#3
That would make sense I've often thought that it was just for entertainment value, you know like watching the game on Sunday or whatever, except its something that won't end.
_____________________ A lie told often enough becomes the truth. Vladimir Lenin your awareness of the whole is marred by your awareness of that which moves contrary to the whole - the sixth dimension Maybe... if you spend your life worrying... then the only way that your life will have meaning is if what you fear becomes real. - tagline from Sublime

munty13
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Posted 10/06/07 - 04:03 AM:	#4
Why? Why not?

jdrw
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Posted 10/06/07 - 08:24 AM:	#5
The gods created the universe because they knew that it eventually would evolve beings who would invent preposterous theologies about the gods, and the gods find these battle-to-the-death theological notions endlessly amusing and entertaining. Theology is the Comedy Channel of the gods. Stuff they could've eventually thought up themselves, but which it was quicker and more fun to produce with humans, once they got going. So the universe, in short, is the setting for a long-running sitcom, full of sound and fury and hilarity.
_____________________ OTOH I might be exhaustively wrong about everything I've ever thought--with the possible exception of this sentence.

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Posted 10/06/07 - 11:31 AM:	#6
I find it to be a contradiction. God is suppose to be perfect, and have a perfect existence, if it desires anything at all, or wants to do or add anything at all to it's existence then it can't be perfect. A perfect existence wouldn't require change, it would preclude wants and desires. In short it would not be lacking in anyway that it would be then necessary or where a reason could exist that would bring such a being to add to its existence. The worst part is that nothing within the creation is perfect. At least not within any standard of judgement that I am aware of or agree with. So creating imperfect things only degrades and sullies god's already perfect existence. It doesn't make any sense to me. I also always wonder what god did before creating people, and what are it's plans afterword if it did exist...it seems to only be around for us, and it's existence seems to revolve around us. It appears to existence solly as an (extremely poor) explaination as to how life on earth and the universe got here, but then does nothing else. Edited by Wosret on 10/06/07 - 11:36 AM
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180 Proof
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Posted 10/06/07 - 01:59 PM:	#7
Why would a "creator god" need a "why" in order to create worlds filled with "why-obsessed creatures"? Also, why accept the incoherent duality (i.e. anthropomorphism) of a creator distinct and separate from creation? Why ask "why" (i.e. personal intention / motivation / purpose (agency)) of impersonal reality?
_____________________ If faith is irrational, then it is rational to dismiss "faith-based claims" out of hand. If faith is rational, then "faith-based claims" must be testable and/or sufficient -- but they are neither. If faith is a-rational, then "faith-based claims" are inexplicable and thus cannot explain anything.

munty13
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Posted 10/06/07 - 02:41 PM:	#8
Love only wants to give. It has no basis in reason. Man is installed with the idea that everything should happen for a reason. Maybe life is about being happy about being alive. Maybe if we stopped asking so many questions, we would learn we don't need the answers. It's the human condition - ouroboros, where we consume and create problems infinitely - chasing our own tails.

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Posted 10/06/07 - 05:08 PM:	#9
Aristotle argues that for all things, happiness comes in fulfilling their natural end. Since God is the living creative force behind the universe, for him, his natural end would come in the act of creation. It would be an end in and of itself.
_____________________ "Happiness is secured through virtue; it is a good attained by man's own will." - Saint Thomas Aquinas "But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

Bo Archer
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Posted 10/06/07 - 10:11 PM: Subject: Creation Myth	#10
God is the Universe. God was never born and never dies. Earth is like a tiny growth within the Groin of God. The idea of a creation is human mind candy and simply serves our vanity and arrogance. We do not see our ignorance because we would find the truth intolerable. There is no personal God. Only gnostic reflection and repose can one get a sense of the Breath of God. Your creation fiction is nothing but the construction of appearance only by otherworldly interlopers long since gone after they wiped their feet upon our earth. My dog thinks of me as his God and believes I created him and his Dog World but that is his fantasy. I can feed him or kill him and he would still worship me.

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Posted 10/06/07 - 10:18 PM:	#11
Do you plan to support any of those assertions?
_____________________ "Happiness is secured through virtue; it is a good attained by man's own will." - Saint Thomas Aquinas "But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

hitblade
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Posted 10/07/07 - 02:12 AM:	#12
Bo Archer wrote: My dog thinks of me as his God and believes I created him and his Dog World but that is his fantasy. I can feed him or kill him and he would still worship me. Mkey?
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coolazice
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Posted 10/07/07 - 03:19 AM:	#13
180 Proof wrote: Why would a "creator god" need a "why" in order to create worlds filled with "why-obsessed creatures"? Also, why accept the incoherent duality (i.e. anthropomorphism) of a creator distinct and separate from creation? Why ask "why" (i.e. personal intention / motivation / purpose (agency)) of impersonal reality? Why ask 'why' at all - personal or not? If I asked Bob Dylan why he wrote 'Idiot Wind', could he ever give me a sufficient explanation? Could anyone? Creation (as a general concept) is just one of those mysteries of the universe. It is a reality that comes before any words and explanations - explanations may help us 'understand', but nevertheless the fact is there! Or as Valery (who understood well the mystery of creation) put it: Le vent se leve! ... il faur tenter de vivre! (The wind rises! ... We must try to live!)
_____________________ One of the greatest weaknesses in human nature is to be dogmatic about issues of which we are ignorant. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio/Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Bo Archer
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Posted 10/07/07 - 08:47 AM:	#14
hitblade No Mkey it is my Dog and he lives in prefect grace and obedience within my Lordship until I change my mind as to his existence. Others have failed me and paid for their disobedience and sinful dog ways by being dispatched to Dog Hell. Is it not the way of the orthodox fundamentalist reactionary militant within their own Creation?

hitblade
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Posted 10/07/07 - 11:38 AM:	#15
Bo Archer wrote: hitblade No Mkey it is my Dog and he lives in prefect grace and obedience within my Lordship until I change my mind as to his existence. Others have failed me and paid for their disobedience and sinful dog ways by being dispatched to Dog Hell. Is it not the way of the orthodox fundamentalist reactionary militant within their own Creation? You what!? Keeping pets is NOT a human right people. There should be stricter laws about having weapons, pets, alcohol and children. People who can't handle them shouldn't be allowed to have them. As for your "lordship" over your dog, you are the leader of the pack. That is why he is obedient, if you don't take command, he will. It's that simple. Also, you are not supposed to be his boss, but his leader. I'm not saying you don't understand dogs, I'm just tired of people who punish their dogs for doing what comes natural to them. Please tell me you are joking.
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PontificatingChauncy
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Posted 10/07/07 - 02:15 PM:	#16
hitblade, this comment seems sarcastic.
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hitblade
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Posted 10/07/07 - 02:26 PM:	#17
I noticed, I'm just angry today (damn, I sinned again ). I'm not sure what my point was. Carry on.
_____________________ There is only the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind!

Allhazred
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Posted 10/08/07 - 07:44 AM:	#18
Well personally 180 proof, Also, why accept the incoherent duality (i.e. anthropomorphism) of a creator distinct and separate from creation? if god is perfect, he/she/it must be distinct and seperate from creation, unless you deem this unverse perfect? because by definition god is perfect
_____________________ A lie told often enough becomes the truth. Vladimir Lenin your awareness of the whole is marred by your awareness of that which moves contrary to the whole - the sixth dimension Maybe... if you spend your life worrying... then the only way that your life will have meaning is if what you fear becomes real. - tagline from Sublime

Wosret
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Posted 10/08/07 - 07:55 AM:	#19
Definitions don't define words, they only give the common useage, and in that case it sounds more like a christian one, also it helps to note that perfection is defined rather ambiguously. I've heard several completely different ideas of what that perfection reflects or if it exists at all from christians. In fact I've rarely seen two theists define god the same way, god holds an entirely subjective meaning, which tends to vary considerably. This however all ignores the fact that 180 Proof is asking why you should accept such a definition of god in the first place. Because if he is suggesting that the anthropomorphic distinctions and aspects of god are incoherent, it is a whole lot more than the perfection aspect he is suggestion that people shouldn't accept. Perfection isn't even an anthropomorphic quality. The majority of the aspects of god in the definition will not fit with a non-anthropomorphic one.
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munty13
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Posted 10/08/07 - 01:23 PM:	#20
The observer creates the judgement of the Universe. All judgements are based in fear. If the observer no longer judges himself, or the Universe at large - he no longer fears himself, or anything outside himself. He becomes perfect, and his perception of the Universe is perfection. Man has always been perfect. The Universe has always been perfect. The sooner man realises he is simply not qualified to judge anything, least of all himself, the better.

Allhazred
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Posted 10/09/07 - 08:41 AM:	#21
Wosret, this is a view I have not really considered, not that definitions dont define words thats something that i always believed, but that This however all ignores the fact that 180 Proof is asking why you should accept such a definition of god in the first place. Because if he is suggesting that the anthropomorphic distinctions and aspects of god are incoherent, it is a whole lot more than the perfection aspect he is suggestion that people shouldn't accept. Perfection isn't even an anthropomorphic quality. that is something to think about and muty13, doesn't the fact that as far as we can tell, within our expirances, we are the only ones able to contemplate the question, mean that we are qualified to judge?
_____________________ A lie told often enough becomes the truth. Vladimir Lenin your awareness of the whole is marred by your awareness of that which moves contrary to the whole - the sixth dimension Maybe... if you spend your life worrying... then the only way that your life will have meaning is if what you fear becomes real. - tagline from Sublime

munty13
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Posted 10/09/07 - 10:12 AM:	#22
All judgements are based in fear. In essence we are not judging external events, we are assessing our own internal responses - we are judging our own fears. Asking ourselves why we might think something as right or wrong, is a more enlightened response compared to outright condemnation of the world around us. As an observer, you are experiencing a tiny fraction of humanity. Another person's journey will have been completely different to yours. But we still feel we have the right to think of our own ideas as better than someone elses. God created the Universe. That's no easy task. Man is an observer in the Universe. We weren't there for the Big Bang, and missed out on millions, and millions of years development in the Universe. And we stand here, shaking our heads and wagging our fingers - 'Nah. My life sucks. God's gone wrong somewhere.' It's hard to accept sometimes, but perhaps it is our perception of the Universe which needs to improve. One of the best ways to do this is to stop judging ourselves , and projecting judgements onto others.

Allhazred
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Posted 10/09/07 - 10:14 AM:	#23
that kinda sounds like the end of philosophy now what can i do in my spare time?
_____________________ A lie told often enough becomes the truth. Vladimir Lenin your awareness of the whole is marred by your awareness of that which moves contrary to the whole - the sixth dimension Maybe... if you spend your life worrying... then the only way that your life will have meaning is if what you fear becomes real. - tagline from Sublime

munty13
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Posted 10/09/07 - 10:21 AM:	#24
Why not take the wife out for dinner?

Allhazred
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Posted 10/09/07 - 10:38 AM:	#25
lol im 17 going into the US Navy wont get a wife for awhile
_____________________ A lie told often enough becomes the truth. Vladimir Lenin your awareness of the whole is marred by your awareness of that which moves contrary to the whole - the sixth dimension Maybe... if you spend your life worrying... then the only way that your life will have meaning is if what you fear becomes real. - tagline from Sublime

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