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 Question about Atheism | |
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Sashianova
work in progress  Usergroup: Members Joined: Nov 01, 2009 Location: Los Angeles Total Topics: 2 Total Posts: 480 |
 #111
Omnipotence and omniscience indicate there is nothing of which God is unaware or out of control. The way J.L. Mackie puts it in the essay "The Problem Of Evil," even if evil is merely the absence of good then the omniscient/omnipotent/wholly good God would look to fill all possible voids with goodness. |
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aletheist
Tenured Poster  Usergroup: Sponsors Joined: Feb 06, 2009 Location: Olathe, KS Total Topics: 15 Total Posts: 1079 |
#112
Sashianova wrote: You are placing arbitrary limitations on God's omnipotence. Surely an omnipotent God has the power to limit his own exercise of omnipotence. Very few theists define omnipotence as being "fully under control of absolutely everything."A being which is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent cannot "voluntarily limit the further exercise of it," because by definition that being would be fully under control of absolutely everything. Even self-imposed "limitations" would be disingenuous. Sashianova wrote: Are you omniscient? If not, then how do you know that the existence of any evil whatsoever is inconsistent with the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God? How do you know that the evil of human free will outweighs the good? Frankly, the mere existence of evil tells us nothing about the existence or non-existence of God.If God is omnipotent/omniscient AND wholly good, then evil should not exist at all. If God is omnipotent/omniscient and evil does exist, then God is not wholly good. If God is wholly good and yet evil exists, then God is not omnipotent/omniscient. Sashianova wrote: Of course he foresaw the results of free will--both positive and negative--and chose to grant it to humans accordingly. This does not make God somehow responsible for the bad decisions that humans have made. As the saying goes, with freedom comes responsibility.It doesn't matter that evil is the result of "free will," for if God is omnipotent/omniscient then God is responsible for what God's creations do with free will, and in fact would have foreseen what free will would result in. Sashianova wrote: The Bible often uses anthropomorphic language to describe God in an effort to help us understand him. Since it talks about his right hand, are we to assume that God actually has one? You seem to be taking the scriptures a bit too literally.
It's ridiculous to think that an all-powerful being who knows all outcomes could possibly be angered by anything or moved emotionally in any way, for emotions themselves are the by-product of living in a linear timeframe. We become angry or sad or fall in love because of time invested. "Be attentive. Be intelligent. Be reasonable. Be responsible." - Bernard Lonergan (1904-1984) |
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baden511
McHamlet  Usergroup: Sponsors Joined: Oct 14, 2009 Location: Under the rainbow Total Topics: 8 Total Posts: 458 |
#113
aletheist wrote: Are you omniscient? If not, then how do you know that the existence of any evil whatsoever is inconsistent with the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God? . It's rather strange to hear the Christian God being claimed to be omnibenevolent. Your God is very often malevolent. He and his prophets sanction rape, murder, child abuse and incest in the Bible. Just read Genesis, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, and Numbers for a start, not to mention the book of revelations where Jesus gets involved in the slaughter. The Old testament is about as moral as Mein Kampf. I find the Satanic Bible to be much more ethical though I don't agree with a lot of it. Of course, Christians come up with convoluted, paradoxical and sometimes frankly ridiculous statements to excuse it all. But the emperor has no clothes and no matter what they say, it's all there in black and white for everyone to see: Pure unadulterated evil. "Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Moses (Numbers 31:17-18) Quality of life is determined by conscious/unconscious strategies in context that are benficial/detrimental with regard to immediate/anticipated states of consciousness. |
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baden511
McHamlet Usergroup: Sponsors Joined: Oct 14, 2009 Location: Under the rainbow Total Topics: 8 Total Posts: 458 |
#114
aletheist wrote: The Bible often uses anthropomorphic language to describe God in an effort to help us understand him. Since it talks about his right hand, are we to assume that God actually has one? You seem to be taking the scriptures a bit too literally. You should tell that to your fellow Christians. Around half (the polls vary a bit) of the population of America believe the Bible is literally true. Yes, they believe in the talking serpent. As Hitler said "the bigger the lie..." Also, in what metaphorical sense should we take God's actions when he orders his prophets to slaughter those who don't believe in him? "Pass through the city after him, and strike. Your eye shall not spare, and you shall show no pity. Kill old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women, but touch no one on whom is the mark..." (Ezekiel 9:5-7) Or do you, like many Christians, think he really did that? If so, what weapons did his followers use while murdering the little girls. Just curious. "Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Moses (Numbers 31:17-18) Quality of life is determined by conscious/unconscious strategies in context that are benficial/detrimental with regard to immediate/anticipated states of consciousness. |
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Sashianova
work in progress Usergroup: Members Joined: Nov 01, 2009 Location: Los Angeles Total Topics: 2 Total Posts: 480 |
#115
aletheist wrote: You are placing arbitrary limitations on God's omnipotence. Surely an omnipotent God has the power to limit his own exercise of omnipotence. Very few theists define omnipotence as being "fully under control of absolutely everything." You're altering the definition for each moment that it suits your purpose. If God is all-powerful and all-knowing and the Creator of absolutely everything, that would indicate that God is, at the very least, aware of all outcomes before they happen and able to control all outcomes if God so desires. To say a God of those qualities (omniscient/omnipotent) isn't fully under control of absolutely everything is to be willfully ignorant. So you posit that an omniscient/omnipotent/wholly good God cannot create free will devoid of evil. Who's doing the limiting now? |
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brainpharte
Huh? Usergroup: Members Joined: Jan 07, 2009 Total Topics: 10 Total Posts: 1503 |
#116
aletheist wrote: You are placing arbitrary limitations on God's omnipotence. Surely an omnipotent God has the power to limit his own exercise of omnipotence. Very few theists define omnipotence as being "fully under control of absolutely everything." Omnibenevolent doesn't mean eventually on balance more good than bad--it means ALL-good. To assert that God can achieve the maximun good only by creating a scenario in which great amounts of evil occur is inconsistent with both of your claims that God is omnibenevolent, and that he is omnipotent. And any claim that in the end the good will outweigh the evil is intelligible only if you can explain the calculus by which goods are balanced against and cancel out evils. If you cannot explain this calculus, then your claim is unintelligible nonsense. Edited by brainpharte on Nov 11, 2009 - 12:17 PM "I don't see much sense in that," said Rabbit. "No," said Pooh humbly, "there isn't. But there was going to be when I began it. It's just that something happened to it along the way." |
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mric
Tenured Poster  Usergroup: Members Joined: Mar 15, 2003 Location: UK Total Topics: 3 Total Posts: 1290 |
#117
aletheist wrote: The Bible often uses anthropomorphic language to describe God in an effort to help us understand him. Since it talks about his right hand, are we to assume that God actually has one? You seem to be taking the scriptures a bit too literally. Does God love, or is that too anthropomorphic? |
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rigelrover
Professor  Usergroup: Sponsors Joined: Aug 05, 2009 Total Topics: 24 Total Posts: 776 |
#118
Sashianova wrote: So you posit that an omniscient/omnipotent/wholly good God cannot create free will devoid of evil. Who's doing the limiting now? Metaphysically impossible. Sufficient conscious awareness constitutes free will. Conscious awareness is founded in the 'suffering' of worldly phenomena. The action potential apparent in free will is such that intentional suffering (a clear prospect for a human definition of evil) can be caused by willful agents. I know this is not what you are concerned with, but it points to a limitation similar to that of implying that a omnipotent god cannot create a rock which it can't lift, etc. It is illogical to place such a limitation upon omnipotence here, as it is to place such a limitation on God's benevolence there. There is not a fully fledged answer to why we exist (or a need for one) wrapped up in ascribing benevolence to God accept for the assumption that what is is good (if it also is a Creator god). There is no necessity to presuppose that what is (perceived evil) is not wholly good. I certainly don't like the idea, however! And am not sure if I could believe it, myself. Furthermore, the doctrine of eternal punishment for evils enacted in life is even more abhorrent. This intentional suffering is not evil that is mandated in such agents existing (I presume), but potential. So even the JCI story of a need for knowing God and freely choosing/seeing what is good is not compromised entirely. It leaves plenty of room for apologetics, etc. Also: For the sake of argument would someone like to present why a God that is not wholly good is no God at all? (If we are going to talk anymore about benevolence, that is) Edited by rigelrover on Nov 11, 2009 - 1:19 PM I am more interested in questions than answers; dialog than dictation. If we can reasonably believe that there is not just a breach, but a fundamentally unclosable gap between the individual mind and the ultimate nature of the reality; the primordial thing in itself, then true mystery does exist. |
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aletheist
Tenured Poster Usergroup: Sponsors Joined: Feb 06, 2009 Location: Olathe, KS Total Topics: 15 Total Posts: 1079 |
#119
baden511 wrote: I wonder why people keep changing the subject instead of addressing what I have said in my posts.It's rather strange to hear the Christian God being claimed to be omnibenevolent. Your God is very often malevolent. baden511 wrote: Where? Chapter and verse, please. One example for each of these four specific accusations will suffice as a starting point.He and his prophets sanction rape, murder, child abuse and incest in the Bible. baden511 wrote: There is some equivocation on the word "literal" in this context. My approach is to determine, to the best of my ability, the author's intended meaning.
Around half (the polls vary a bit) of the population of America believe the Bible is literally true. "Be attentive. Be intelligent. Be reasonable. Be responsible." - Bernard Lonergan (1904-1984) |
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aletheist
Tenured Poster Usergroup: Sponsors Joined: Feb 06, 2009 Location: Olathe, KS Total Topics: 15 Total Posts: 1079 |
#120
Sashianova wrote: I am not altering the definition at all--the standard definition of omniscience is the ability to do anything that is possible. It is not possible to grant genuine free will to humans and also guarantee what they will do with it.You're altering the definition for each moment that it suits your purpose. Sashianova wrote: I have already acknowledged the awareness part. The key to the control part is "if God so desires." Since he (apparently) wanted humans to have free will, he (apparently) did not want to "control all outcomes." He could have done so, but he chose not to do so.
If God is all-powerful and all-knowing and the Creator of absolutely everything, that would indicate that God is, at the very least, aware of all outcomes before they happen and able to control all outcomes if God so desires. "Be attentive. Be intelligent. Be reasonable. Be responsible." - Bernard Lonergan (1904-1984) |
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