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Proof that numbers exist

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Proof that numbers exist

Yahadreas
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Posted 08/21/09 - 02:20 PM:	#41
I think someone on this forum once made the useful distinction between "to exist" and "to be real". Existence is an ontological condition, and reality is an epistemological condition. Trees exist (and are real), but numbers don't exist (but are real). I suppose one might argue that with this in mind one could validly claim that unicorns are real (but don't exist).
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tmangamer
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Posted 08/22/09 - 06:09 PM:	#42
The French philosopher Descartes has a religious explanation saying that the answer is "no" (just food for thought, everyone is then free to believe or not in God and religion) : He says that we do not know that 1 + 1 = 2, maybe 1 + 1 = 3, but God created a world where 1 + 1 = 2 so that's why it is so. I choose not to follow this idea, but then again it's a different explanation to a much more complicated matter.

Thurst
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Posted 08/23/09 - 04:37 AM:	#43
"He says that we do not know that 1 + 1 = 2, maybe 1 + 1 = 3, but God created a world where 1 + 1 = 2 so that's why it is so." in a Thiest's idea of a god that wouldnt make sense because god created everything so if 1 + 1 acually did = 3 or 9 or 5678767 it would be because god created it. I agree with the statement Yahadreas made. Numbers are real but dont technicly exist becuase there is no being for a number, but a number is simply a varible used to describe quantity. (1 apple. there is (an) apple but there is no 3)

Cheshire
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Posted 08/23/09 - 04:27 PM:	#44
Can you count? Then numbers must exist.
Or not.

Seamus
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Posted 08/23/09 - 09:54 PM:	#45
ManiacJack wrote: Can someone please give me a proof that numbers exist? It is that in my journey through life and all the talk of numbers and whatnot, I realized the other day that I have never seen number. I have seen squiggles, and many attest to the squiggle being number, but it appears that many cultures have used many different squiggles throughout time; and so seeing that as such, are we sure that numbers are not something subjective- that is, a matter of opinion because there is no proof for their existence? Numbers only exist as a classification invented by humans. If people did not exist, there would be no such thing as numbers, just multiplicity. When you see three oranges sitting on the ground, you recognize them as 3 and call them that. But if there were never humans on the earth, it would simply be orange, orange, orange. There is nothing that really makes it 3 oranges.
Religious and philosophical beliefs are, indeed, as dangerous as fire, and nothing can take from them that beauty of danger. - G.K. Chesterton

Cheshire
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Posted 08/23/09 - 10:11 PM:	#46
Seamus wrote: Numbers only exist as a classification invented by humans. If people did not exist, there would be no such thing as numbers, just multiplicity. When you see three oranges sitting on the ground, you recognize them as 3 and call them that. But if there were never humans on the earth, it would simply be orange, orange, orange. There is nothing that really makes it 3 oranges. I agree. However it is the case people exist.
Or not.

Schlitz
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Posted 09/14/09 - 11:41 PM:	#47
brainpharte wrote: Schlitz wrote: Reasoning about numbers is possible. Things are true of numbers, and other things are false of numbers. Based on this, it doesn't make sense to doubt the existence of numbers. Is there any dispute about the existence of numbers in that sense of "exist"? No, and that's my point: there is no question about the existence of numbers. Of course they exist, and everyone knows it. And even more so, that sense of 'exist' is the only legitimate one, since it's the reading you get if you leave metaphysics out of the picture completely. Edited by Schlitz on 09/14/09 - 11:56 PM

Timothy
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Posted 09/15/09 - 11:19 AM:	#48
Maniac Jack wrote: Can someone please give me a proof that numbers exist? I've been convinced for a long time that ontology is a matter of commitment. When we find it absolutely necessary to speak of wombats, we commit ourselves to their existence. Sometimes it turns out it wasn't so necessary to speak about wombats; now we are in a position to revise our belief and decide that wombats don't exist. Similarly, when we speak about numbers in, say, number theory, we are committing ourselves to their existence. Nowadays, we have realized that we don't really need to talk about numbers, since we can translate number-statements into set-statements. We could, if we wanted, withdraw our previous commitment about numbers existing. Or we could keep talking about numbers (since it's more economical) and, when the time to shave with Occam's razor comes, translate our statements into set-statements. If you want to be convinced that something x exists, and demand a proof of it, you would seem to just be asking for reasons to speak in a certain way. At this point, I think that persuasion comes into play. Pragmatics goes a long way. But if you're asking from a "metaphysical realism" POV, then maybe you're still thinking about ontology, and objectivity, in the old way. And that way has proven to be a dead-end.
"Neither Aristotelian nor Russellian rules give the exact logic of any expression of ordinary language; for ordinary language has no exact logic." P.F. Strawson

brainpharte
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Posted 09/15/09 - 12:19 PM:	#49
I think that what has happened regularly is that people use convenient shorthand terms such as number names, but then thingify, nounify, reify them. (This was Plato's favorite pastime. Though of course people everywhere have reified their every notion--river gods, forest faries, wind spirits, witches, daemons, etc.) Thinking up something and then believing that it's a real thing is an ancient habit.
"I don't see much sense in that," said Rabbit. "No," said Pooh humbly, "there isn't. But there was going to be when I began it. It's just that something happened to it along the way."

Sliver
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Posted 09/17/09 - 09:55 PM:	#50
Numbers are based in reality. Then, through reason, we come to grip with their concept. So do numbers exist? Yes, but purely within logic and reason.

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