Problem with Evil: Philosophy Forums

Philosophy Forums » Philosophy of Religion » Problem with Evil » Problem with Evil

Problem with Evil
Going in circles

Page: 1 2 3

Problem with Evil

NocturnalJourney
Enigmatic Encounter

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 10, 2007
Location: Elysium
Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 35

Posted 04/10/07 - 02:41 PM: Subject: Problem with Evil	#1
Forgive me if this was mentioned before, but I don't understand what came first: The Creation of Earth in Genesis, or Lucifer getting kicked out of heaven?? I am also in dilemma when it comes to having evil already present in heaven before Lucifer's fall. Let me explain: Heaven=Perfect Lucifer gets jealous=Imperfection (Came from where?) Lucifer is cast down to hell If Lucifer already existed in a perfect heaven, where did his SIN=jealousy appear from? Maybe I got it all mixed up then, and evil already existed, in that case the Genesis came first in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve, but yet I am faced with another dilemma, if the snake on the tree was Satan (Fallen Lucifer) then he was cast down before Genesis and Garden of Eden. Hmm..can anybody explain this to me? Thank You.
"Human life is purely a matter of deciding what's important to you" ~Anonymous

Mr.Anonymous
Mr.Anonymous

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Jan 05, 2007
Location: The Internet
Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 611

Posted 04/10/07 - 02:58 PM:	#2
First off, welcome to Philosophy Forums. I may not be the official expert on the Bible, but let me see if I can figure this out for you. 1) Lucifer is the first entity created by the Supreme One (God), therefore the second most powerful force in existance. This may have lead to him (or her ) obtaining free will, and thereby experimenting with concept of evil, leading to his disobedience of the will of the Supreme One and being cast out of the Divine Halls. It may also be possible that Lucifer shared his free will with other angels. 2) Upon entering the universe of Hell, Lucifer attempts to create his own kingdom. Since angels are very polarized and fixed entities, Lucifer would have been very much focused on the negative of reality, and anything that he made would reflect that. Hell becomes the Empire of Darkness, a direct challenge to the Empire of Light ruled by the other archangels. 3) Lucifer notices that God/The Supreme One gave the first humans free will, and proceeds to show Eve and Adam the "dark side of the Force". As for which came first, I think that the Creation of Earth was first, before Lucifer's Fall, but the temptation of Eve did not happen until after the Fall. Hope that answers things. Also, things of this sort belong in the Religion(Non-Philosophical Discussion) Subforum. The moderators will probably move this thread there. Mr.Anonymous
Hi.

NocturnalJourney
Enigmatic Encounter

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 10, 2007
Location: Elysium
Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 35

Posted 04/10/07 - 03:02 PM:	#3
So are you saying even God and angels are subjected to freewill and freewill is above God?
"Human life is purely a matter of deciding what's important to you" ~Anonymous

benzie5033
Graduate

Usergroup: Sponsors
Joined: Feb 28, 2007
Location: Penn State University
Total Topics: 6
Total Posts: 159

Posted 04/10/07 - 03:05 PM:	#4
Free will is something that God has, I wouldn't say that angels have it because they are a kind of servent of God. We on the other hand are made in God's image so we have the ability to do evil through free will.
What goes here?

NocturnalJourney
Enigmatic Encounter

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Apr 10, 2007
Location: Elysium
Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 35

Posted 04/10/07 - 03:06 PM:	#5
So how did Lucifer chose evil if he had no free will?
"Human life is purely a matter of deciding what's important to you" ~Anonymous

bex9
Personality type: INTj

Usergroup: Sponsors
Joined: Apr 17, 2005
Location: Nearby
Total Topics: 8
Total Posts: 125

Posted 04/10/07 - 03:20 PM:	#6
NocturnalJourney wrote: ...if the snake on the tree was Satan... The Bible never once says that the serpent is in fact Satan or Lucifer. Genesis 3:1 wrote: Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree in the garden?'" The serpent is merely a beast that is personified for effect, but it is simply that: a serpent. Fact is, Israelites didn't adopt the concept of dualism until being exposed to the Persian/Zoroastrian belief in two separate beings, one the supreme good, and one the supreme evil, c. 650 B.C.E. when they were captured by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, and then released by Cyrus II c. 600 B.C.E. Satan resembles very closely the Zoroastrian character Ahriman, or "Prince of Evil", who is the enemy of the Zoroastrian Supreme Being, Ahura Mazda. If you look again, the Bible does not actually mention "Satan" until the New Testament. The Old Testament does blame various deities and historical figures for bad things happening to the Israelites, such as Nebuchadnezzar (Zoroastrian king), Beelzebub (Zoroastrian deity), and Baal (Canaanite deity). It is a common Christian misconception that Satan is the serpent and all the other bad guys in the Old Testament.
"Faith: not wanting to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche

180 Proof
cult deprogrammer

Usergroup: Sponsors
Joined: Apr 27, 2003
Location: reason's raggedy edge
Total Topics: 74
Total Posts: 3986

Posted 04/10/07 - 04:01 PM:	#7
The Abrahamic traditions preach that the source of "evil" is "free will". They also preach that god created the world by choice without compulsion (i.e. "free will"). In this way, perhaps, man is an "image of god." How is it, while man is provisionally responsible for "evil" on account of "free will", that the god of Abraham is not recognized as being ultimately responsible for "evil" on the same account? Surely, for instance, the adult who provides a child loaded guns to play with is responsible for any harm this child causes others and/or himself by gunplay. Had this desert god not created "death", it would have been impossible for Cain to kill Abel, and the sons of Cain would have never learned to study war ... Clearly, this is a "mystery!"
If faith is irrational, then it is rational to dismiss "faith-based claims" out of hand. If faith is rational, then "faith-based claims" must be testable and/or sound -- but they are neither. If faith is a-rational, then "faith-based claims" are inexplicable and thus cannot explain anything.

bex9
Personality type: INTj

Usergroup: Sponsors
Joined: Apr 17, 2005
Location: Nearby
Total Topics: 8
Total Posts: 125

Posted 04/10/07 - 04:19 PM:	#8
180 Proof wrote: How is it, while man is provisionally responsible for "evil" on account of "free will", that the god of Abraham is not recognized as being ultimately responsible for "evil" on the same account? Early Abrahamic tradition (pre-Babylonian association) held that the supreme being was an all-encompassing being, that possessed the full range of emotions, as we can see with the wrathful god, the merciful god, the vengeful god, and so on. In this sense, the Abrahamic god is both good and evil. Perhaps the combination of all good and all evil in one being is the embodiment of equilibrium.
"Faith: not wanting to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Banno
Tenured Poster

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
Location: Oz
Total Topics: 33
Total Posts: 3108

Posted 04/10/07 - 04:55 PM:	#9
Mr.Anonymous wrote: 1) Lucifer is the first entity created by the Supreme One (God), therefore the second most powerful force in existance. Shame god didn't start with something less ambitious...
Davidson: We make maximum sense of the words and thoughts of others when we interpret in a way that optimizes agreement. Russel Morris: There's a meaning there, but the meaning there doesn't really mean a thing...

Landlady
curious skeptic

Usergroup: Moderators
Joined: Feb 09, 2007
Location: USA
Total Topics: 19
Total Posts: 504

Posted 04/10/07 - 05:41 PM:	#10
The way I see it, evil is just falling from the grace of god. Once this falling-away occurs, you are no longer perfect (or one with god), and evil comes from this imperfection.
There is time to laugh and there is time not to laugh, and this is not one of them. - Insp. Clouseau. From the moment absurdity is recognized, it becomes a passion, the most harrowing of all. But whether or not one can live with one's passions, whether or not one can accept their law, which is to burn the heart they simultaneously exalt--that is the whole question. � Camus.

Page: 1 2 3

You don't have permission to post.

Please login or register.