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Political corruption of the IPCC report
perseus
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Posted 01/15/08 - 12:34 AM:
Subject: Political corruption of the IPCC report
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Strong political pressure has resulted in the alleged ‘corruption’ of the latest IPCC report that can be seen from comparing the Draft and final versions; this is just one example

Draft version: "


Sea ice shrinks both in the Arctic and Antarctic under all scenarios. This reduction is amplified by feedbacks in the Arctic where some models project sea ice to disappear for the A2 scenario by the latter part of the 21st century"

Final version: "
Sea ice is projected to shrink in both the Arctic and Antarctic under all SRES scenarios. In some projections, Arctic late-summer sea ice disappears almost entirely by the latter part of the 21st. Century".http://www.meridian.org.uk/Resources/Global%20Dyn...

Of particular significance is the removal of references to positive feedback and acceleration of climate effects throughout the report.




However, the draft version is way out of date by the time it is written. It seems the ‘accelerated effects’ have overtaken the IPCC scientists.

Just last year two top scientists surprised their colleagues by projecting that the Arctic sea ice was melting so rapidly that it could disappear entirely by the summer of 2040. This week, after reviewing his own new data, NASA climate scientist Jay Zwally said: "At this rate, the Arctic Ocean could be nearly ice-free at the end of summer by 2012, much faster than previous predictions."




http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/0...


So perhaps the Sceptics are right to be cynical of the IPCCs analysis after all, however it seems to be for the wrong reasons. Every time the IPCC provides an estimate it seems to be based on data that is two years out of date. This is because there is always some disagreement between the scientists at exactly what the wording should be followed by political pressure to change it further. In view of the potential corruption of the report by the politicians in conjunction with out of date information it is based on, is all the bureaucracy justified? In an attempt to please everyone it simply ends up being inconsistent with the latest evidence


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sqeecoo
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Posted 01/22/08 - 02:33 PM:
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Global warming is not a very good theory, and the fact that it's treated like religion and not science makes me doubt it even more.

All you need to know:

http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm

http://www.icecap.us/
perseus
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Posted 01/22/08 - 03:25 PM:
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sgeecoo

Well, at least we agree that the IPCC reports may be misleading. The point I was making of course is that climate scepticism can work both ways.

Regarding your links I could go over all the old arguments we have been discussing on the other threads regarding GW but I shall let that go. Sufficient to mention that the threads you have posted have a serous flaw and betray the mindset that is a major cause of the problem, nearly all the data refer to the USA ! Of course if each country could live in its own little climate world this would be fine and the US could 'reap' the effects of its negligence, in fact it would already be knee deep in water and be soon gasping for air. Unfortunately, its not quite that simple since we are all in the same boat, and that is what makes it a much more difficult problem, it only takes one big country to sink it. The US will eventually come around if everyone else does no doubt. Unfortunately, the developing world will drag its heels until it's too late since they will want a slice of what we have had over the past few centuries. Convergence and contraction is a pipe dream.

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Posted 01/22/08 - 04:33 PM:
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You make a good point there about much of the data being about the US. Not "nearly all" of it, though, the temperature and CO2 stuff is not. And I don't see why the US wouldn't be representative of the rest of the world.

Anyway, I don't really want to convince you that the global warming theory is false at this point, just promote "climate skepticism" by pointing out that the situation is not as clear as the media make it out to be.

Could you link those "other threads regarding GW", I'd be interested in reading some of those arguments.

Thanks smiling face
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Posted 01/23/08 - 12:25 AM:
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sqeecoo Here are the links, most of them are further down on this science board

http://forums.philosophyforums.com/threads/global...

http://forums.philosophyforums.com/threads/global...

http://forums.philosophyforums.com/threads/the-gr...

http://forums.philosophyforums.com/threads/carbon...

This last one is not on GW but discusses the root problem

http://forums.philosophyforums.com/threads/is-our...

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Posted 01/23/08 - 12:56 AM:
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The onus is on the 'business as usual' sceptics to generate a compelling argument to show that anthropogenic effects are insignificant. Even if they are only 50% certain, this would be insufficient reasons for 'no action' due to the potential catastrophic consequences. It is true that we can never be certain of anything, the IPCC officially claim they are 90% certain, although since their data is always out of date this is very conservative. Most would now probably say 95% or greater.

However, even this misses the point. The sceptics cannot suddenly turn round at a later date as they get their feet wet and say "OK we were wrong what do we do now?" It will be too late by then, because once the climate momentum has started it will be difficult to stop due to the positive feedback effects mentioned in my first post. Hence we have to be very sure that anthropogenic effects are not relevant. In view of the a priori and a posteriori evidence supporting GW this is not even a remotely tenable position.

The 'no action' sceptic group is encouraged by pro business groups who believe that any serious action will threaten their flawed economic system, and the enormous profits they extract from it. There are always a few fringe disgruntled scientists who want to make a name that can be dragged out of the closet to provide the impression that the sceptics are a large and respectable lobby. Nothing could be further from the truth, hardly anyone 'in the know' who has studied this agrees with their view, but by turning a largely dead argument into a debate the business leaders can drag their heels a bit longer, use the political system to retain power and continue to extract short term profits from the system, before hiding away in their mansion on the hill. This is all analogous to the arguments the tobacco lobby used a few decades ago, no-one now claims it isn't related to cancer, but by dragging the argument out and making it into a debate they extracted a small fortune.


Edited by perseus on 01/23/08 - 01:22 AM

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Swordfishtrombone
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Posted 01/23/08 - 12:34 PM:
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sqeecoo wrote:
Global warming is not a very good theory, and the fact that it's treated like religion and not science makes me doubt it even more.

All you need to know:

Really? That's all we need to know?

For all the people out there who seem to value political rhetoric over scientific literature, let me steer you to the following article. This is an excerpt from a review in Science (Vol. 306. no. 5702, p. 1686, December 3 2004) that addresses the strength of the scientific concensus on climate change, and whether dissenting opinions have been neglected. The bold and emphases are mine.

The drafting of such reports and statements involves many opportunities for comment, criticism, and revision, and it is not likely that they would diverge greatly from the opinions of the societies' members. Nevertheless, they might downplay legitimate dissenting opinions. That hypothesis was tested by analyzing 928 abstracts, published in refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003, and listed in the ISI database with the keywords "climate change" (9).

The 928 papers were divided into six categories: explicit endorsement of the consensus position, evaluation of impacts, mitigation proposals, methods, paleoclimate analysis, and rejection of the consensus position. Of all the papers, 75% fell into the first three categories, either explicitly or implicitly accepting the consensus view; 25% dealt with methods or paleoclimate, taking no position on current anthropogenic climate change. Remarkably, none of the papers disagreed with the consensus position.

Admittedly, authors evaluating impacts, developing methods, or studying paleoclimatic change might believe that current climate change is natural. However, none of these papers argued that point.

This analysis shows that scientists publishing in the peer-reviewed literature agree with IPCC, the National Academy of Sciences, and the public statements of their professional societies. Politicians, economists, journalists, and others may have the impression of confusion, disagreement, or discord among climate scientists, but that impression is incorrect.

The scientific consensus might, of course, be wrong. If the history of science teaches anything, it is humility, and no one can be faulted for failing to act on what is not known. But our grandchildren will surely blame us if they find that we understood the reality of anthropogenic climate change and failed to do anything about it.

Many details about climate interactions are not well understood, and there are ample grounds for continued research to provide a better basis for understanding climate dynamics. The question of what to do about climate change is also still open. But there is a scientific consensus on the reality of anthropogenic climate change. Climate scientists have repeatedly tried to make this clear. It is time for the rest of us to listen.


Edited by Swordfishtrombone on 01/23/08 - 12:41 PM

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Posted 01/23/08 - 01:36 PM:
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Well Swordfishtrombone, on the site I linked to 19000 US scientists have signed a petition against the global warming theory. So there you have all that's needed to know there is no consensus.

Regarding that study:

http://www.staff.livjm.ac.uk/spsbpeis/Sciencelett...


Oreskes claims to have analysed 928 abstracts she found listed on the ISI database using the keywords "climate change". However, a search on the ISI database using the keywords "climate change" for the years 1993 - 2003 reveals that almost 12,000 papers were published during the decade in question (2). What happened to the countless research papers that show that global temperatures were similar or even higher during the Holocene Climate Optimum and the Medieval Warm Period when atmospheric CO2 levels were much lower than today; that solar variability is a key driver of recent climate change, and that climate modeling is highly uncertain?


These objections were put to Oreskes by science writer David Appell. On 15 December 2004, she admitted that there was indeed a serious mistake in her Science essay. According to Oreskes, her study was not based on the keywords "climate change," but on "global climate change" (3).


@perseus:

Thanks for the links. Regarding your points, the site I linked also provides a good counter-argument:


Counting the cost of the precautionary principle

People will appeal to the Precautionary Principle - that it's better to be safe than sorry. Why not sign global treaties to limit carbon emissions? The April 16th Newsweek had a telling map entitled "Leaders and Laggers". Based on the Environmental Performance Index from Yale, it rated countries based on how environmentally friendly their policies were - the "leaders" dark green and the "laggers" in coal black. One immediately notes a rough correlation between wealth and environmental policy on this map. Why not encourage developing nations to get with the program and use more "clean energy"?

Well, why don't you have a solar paneled house? Probably because it's too expensive. No matter what we say about saving costs down the road, as a practical matter these solar technologies involve too much of an initial capital investment to be feasible for most Americans. Installation costs for one entirely solar house in Boston was $35,456. Presumably the technology will get cheaper and more efficient in the future, but this is where it stands today. A recent article came out about a group of Virginia Tech engineering students who designed a solar energy system to power a clinic in Getongoroma village in Southwestern Kenya. The high tech system will provide the clinic with an ample 24 kilowatt hours per day (25% more than was requested, but still 20% less than the average US household uses). The projected cost: $120,000. Surrounded by the relative riches of America, the project is still in the fund raising stage. How can we possibly be serious in prescribing this to countries where the average person earns a couple of dollars a day? James Shikwati, a Kenyan economist and author, has said, "The rich countries can afford to engage in some luxurious experimentation with other forms of energy. But for us, we are still at the stage of survival."

Of course, there are places where solar energy is the best option for electricity in developing countries. These are generally places that have no hope of getting connected with a power grid, such as remote clinics in agricultural communities in Kenya or guerilla-controlled areas of Burma. The technology generally used in clinics along the Thai-Burmese border, for example, utilizes solar panels which each cost $525. Sounds a little more reasonable, right? Each of these panels supplies 130 watts of power. If you have two incandescent light bulbs on in your house right now, you are probably exceeding this wattage. If you made coffee this morning, you used almost seven times this amount of power. The medics along the Thai-Burma border don't really focus much on immunizations because a refrigerator requires at least 200-700 watts of power. Of course, this also precludes the possibility of blood banks, in a part of the world where medics are frequently faced with treating postpartum hemorrhage, malarial hemolysis and trauma. At a household level, lack of refrigeration has profound repercussions in the form of prevalent and deadly diarrheal diseases that account for 50% of childhood mortality in this population. What else might you want in a clinic? An ultrasound? Cautery? A microscope that can be used at night? A pulse-oximeter? A UV lamp?

These affordable solar panels are a valuable stopgap, but they are by no means a permanent panacea for the word's energy needs. Economist James Shikwati says, "I don't see how a solar panel is going to power a steel industry, how a solar panel is going to power a railway train network. It might work to power a small transistor radio…. One clear thing that emerges from [this] debate is the point that there's somebody keen to kill the African dream. And the African dream is to develop." By telling developing countries to use "clean energy sources" what we are saying is, "You will not have electricity at all." We are saying, "You will live a life of backbreaking work. You will see at least one of your children die in early childhood, probably more than that. You will experience incomparably more painful and dangerous pregnancy and labor than women in developed countries, and you will face it more frequently because you will fear losing your children to disease, starvation or violence. You will be too busy struggling for survival to protest the rampant official corruption or the government troops who rape you, destroy your villages and disregard your votes. Ultimately, you will die 20-30 years younger than I will.

"But it will be worth it, because I've been told there is a scientific consensus that all this is necessary to avert global warming."


EDIT:
Swordfishtrombone wrote:

Really? That's all we need to know?



Oh, I meant to say that all you needed to know is on those sites. Hence the colon at the end of that statement.

Edited by sqeecoo on 01/23/08 - 01:41 PM
perseus
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Posted 01/23/08 - 03:03 PM:
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Claims about the medieval warm period and the other most common climate myths and misconceptions are addressed here

http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth...

You are correct however to point out that many technical approaches are based on absurd ideology rather than good economic engineering. Photovoltaics and micro-turbines are ridiculously expensive ways to replace carbon fuels, although small scale experimentation and development is essential if these hare to have any future potential.

Incidentally I do have a solar powered house, and so probably do you, surprised? It's called passive solar heating, of course since my windows face west and north they were not well designed for that purpose, but since we require windows anyway it may be considered to have zero cost. If windows were sufficiently , positioned and insulated at night (and I have designed a few versions) there would be a net heat influx. Of course cooling has to be considered (or you could make the situation worse) through ground ventilation and reflective vanes. It is admittedly difficult if the house was designed without any foresight and the housing stock takes a long time to change. Other obvious cost effective solutions are loft and cavity wall insulation. The trick is not to try to make the house carbon neutral but 80% so, since the last 20% is usually very expensive. The remaining 20% has to be provided via changes in the central grid (wood gas/ nuclear/ carbon capture/ wind turbines/ carbon sequestration)

Regarding developing nations, the situation is challenging. Most energy/heating in rural areas is via brushwood and perhaps a more efficient method of obtaining heat and light could be achieved by using a personal or communal wood gasifier. If such a device is constructed that just burns off the volatiles and the remaining charcoal is buried or refined into fertiliser perhaps such a system would be carbon negative, reduce smoke (a serious health problem in huts) and potentially provide more heat and light.

Good environmental engineering is not just about generating solutions, but meaningful economic ones.

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sqeecoo
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Posted 01/23/08 - 03:16 PM:
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Glad to see you accept that making economic changes is not very simple. I am not against precautionary measures, but they have to be careful and non-radical, with the more developed nations making most of the sacrifices (and doing most of the regretting once GW proves to be a myth grin).

Really, cleaning up the air a bit can't be too bad. But radical measures could seriously mess up the world's economy, and it's dangerous to treat a scientific theory as religious dogma to justify those measures. Scientific theories should always be questioned and never considered certain, that's a basic aspect of doing science. There is simply too much bias in the media, and everyone disagreeing with GW is labeled an idiot (not here thankfully). That's unacceptable.

Now I do think that GW is a fraud, but I am not asking for it to be accepted as such. I am asking for calm, reasonable and open discussion about both the measures to combat GW and the GW theory itself.

Thanks for that link, it looks good! I'll study it and get back to you smiling face

Edited by sqeecoo on 01/23/08 - 03:23 PM
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