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Plato's Allegory of The Cave and Nietzsche
Nietzsche might have taken a tip from Plato.

Plato's Allegory of The Cave and Nietzsche

alliop
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Posted 04/17/08 - 06:21 PM: Subject: Plato's Allegory of The Cave and Nietzsche	#1
Thus Spoke Zarathustra begins with a man that has an epiphany in a cave at the top of a mountain. He then descends down the side of the mountain and attempts to inform his fellow men of what he had learned. This seems strangely familiar to Plato's Allegory of The Cave in which a man is shown shadows on a cave wall his entire life. He escapes from the cave and learns what the reality behind the shadows are. He return to the cave to free his fellow cave dwellers as it is thought to be his responsibility. Is it just coincidence or did Nietzsche intentionaly draw his man in the mountain from Plato?

jaoman
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1 of 1 people found this post helpful Posted 04/17/08 - 08:52 PM:	#2
I don't know if its coincidence or not, but it is symptomatic of the difference that Nietzsche likes to emphasize between himself and Plato. Plato is the man in the cave looking up. His self esteem is fragile and he see the goal as superior to himself (out of the cave). Nietzsche, on the contrary, is looking down from above. His goal is to pass down betterment from a better, nicer place. Essentially, Nietzsche is an optimist (though, many will disagree), whereas Plato is a pessimist (and people will disagree with this too). However, I think this would be Nietzsche's comparison in (a very anti-Nietzsche thing to do) layman's terms.
"With no relation to class or social background, whether it suits them or not, people yearn for a dream. Sustained by a dream, hurt by a dream, revived by a dream, killed by a dream. And even after being abandoned by a dream, it continues to smolder from the bottom of one's heart... probably until the verge of death. A man should envision such a lifetime once. A life spent as a martyr to the god named "dream." - Kentaro Miura

alliop
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Posted 04/20/08 - 09:00 AM:	#3
jaoman wrote: I don't know if its coincidence or not, but it is symptomatic of the difference that Nietzsche likes to emphasize between himself and Plato. Plato is the man in the cave looking up. His self esteem is fragile and he see the goal as superior to himself (out of the cave). Nietzsche, on the contrary, is looking down from above. His goal is to pass down betterment from a better, nicer place. Essentially, Nietzsche is an optimist (though, many will disagree), whereas Plato is a pessimist (and people will disagree with this too). However, I think this would be Nietzsche's comparison in (a very anti-Nietzsche thing to do) layman's terms. I did sense a very hard nosed optimistic tone in Nietzche's work but I did not sense a pessimistic additude coming from Plato. To me Plato seemed more neutral in tone than anything else.

180 Proof
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Posted 04/20/08 - 02:52 PM: Subject: Übermensch versus Philosophos	#4
jaoman wrote: I don't know if its coincidence or not, but it is symptomatic of the difference that Nietzsche likes to emphasize between himself and Plato. Plato is the man in the cave looking up. His self esteem is fragile and he see the goal as superior to himself (out of the cave). Nietzsche, on the contrary, is looking down from above. His goal is to pass down betterment from a better, nicer place. Essentially, Nietzsche is an optimist (though, many will disagree), whereas Plato is a pessimist (and people will disagree with this too). However, I think this would be Nietzsche's comparison in (a very anti-Nietzsche thing to do) layman's terms. Being a consummate classical philologist and biblical critic, I think Nietzsche's TSZ is a deliberate reply to Plato's Republic in the expressive form of a parody of the Old Testament (particularly the Book of Exodus). Nietzsche is optimistic about this world, but pessimistic about most people who can't face it affirmatively, in contrast to Plato who is pessimistic about this world and optimistic that anyone who is shown the path will follow it to some other, higher world. Both were "elitists", Nietzsche psychological (i.e. involuntary) and Plato intellectual (i.e. voluntary), respectively. TSZ is "a book for everyone and no one" with "new music for new ears" that preaches only to the choir; thus Zarathustra is disappointed by "the crowd" who cannot understand his teachings. The Republic, however, is a dialectical lecture for well-heeled, "aristocratic" students of Plato's Academy that it as much an utopian "thought-experiment" as a pagan "City of God" (or stairway to heaven) that is a blueprint (or apologia) for "philosopher-kings" ruling in this world on the intellectual basis of (recollections of) the other, higher world (i.e. The Good). "The meaning of the earth" versus "The Good". Zarathustra versus Socrates. Edited by 180 Proof on 04/20/08 - 03:19 PM. Reason: "We possess art lest we perish of the truth ..."
If faith is irrational, then it is rational to dismiss "faith-based claims" out of hand. If faith is rational, then "faith-based claims" must be testable and/or sound -- but they are neither. If faith is a-rational, then "faith-based claims" are inexplicable and thus cannot explain anything.

amy_anima
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Posted 04/22/08 - 07:56 AM:	#5
alliop wrote: I did sense a very hard nosed optimistic tone in Nietzche's work but I did not sense a pessimistic additude coming from Plato. To me Plato seemed more neutral in tone than anything else. I suppose he could be seen as a pessimist in terms of the return of the prisoner. He is mocked by the others in the cave who say his pursuit of philosophy has weakened his abilities. They will refuse to believe anything could be more real than their own opinions and if he tried to force the others towards the truth, he would be killed (no doubt referring to Socrates' death).
The body is the source of endless trouble... it fills us full of loves and lusts and fears and fancies of all kinds... and takes away from us all power of thinking at all. - Plato

amohmand
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Posted 05/26/08 - 07:00 AM:	#6
I'm not sure if Nietzsche intended to make this connection but having read a lot about Nietzsche I've never come across any mention of it. Plato's caveman climbs "out" of the cave and into the sunlight of knowledge. Zarathustra climbs down from the mountain to share the knowledge he has acquired there. What strikes me here is the different ideas these metaphors express about knowledge and how knowledge is acquired. For Plato it would seem that knowledge comes from seeing clearly, by not being deluded and through a kind of opening of one's eyes. The cave, which is below ground, represents ignorance and willful self-delusion. For Zarathustra, the cave represents an ivory tower of sorts. This is where Zarathustra retreats from the rabble to gather the honey of his wisdom to look inward. If you remember, Zarathustra returns to his cave after the people have rejected his message to figure out what went wrong or what he will next. It is a very interesting contrast and having thought about it this far, I would not be at all surprised if Nietzsche made it intentionally. After all, Nietzsche considered Plato an adversary. So, I'd have to say that for Nietzsche knowledge is about looking inward and for Plato it is about evidence and seeing clearly. In other words, Nietzsche's theory of knowledge is more "gnostic" and Plato's more rational/scientific (based solely on the metaphor of the cave). Very cool question!

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