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Piety, ethics and divine commands

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Piety, ethics and divine commands
Paul
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Posted 05/07/03 - 06:53 PM:
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#1
This is a bit long and focused on a particular well known argument, so I'll give it a thread distinct from The Gecko's.

This is from the Euthyphro, by Plato, which is theoretically an accurate account of Socrates demonstrating the Socratic method. The bold spot is mine, to indicate the key question. [...] is inserted in spots where I cut some text (mostly that which depends on polytheism).


Euth. Piety, then, is that which is dear to the gods, and impiety is that which is not dear to them.
[...]
Soc. Come, then, and let us examine what we are saying. That thing or person which is dear to the gods is pious, and that thing or person which is hateful to the gods is impious, these two being the extreme opposites of one another. Was not that said?
[...]
Euth. But I believe, Socrates, that all the gods would be agreed as to the propriety of punishing a murderer: there would be no difference of opinion about that.
Soc. Well, but speaking of men, Euthyphro, did you ever hear any one arguing that a murderer or any sort of evil-doer ought to be let off?
Euth. I should rather say that these are the questions which they are always arguing, especially in courts of law: they commit all sorts of crimes, and there is nothing which they will not do or say in their own defence.
Soc. But do they admit their guilt, Euthyphro, and yet say that they ought not to be punished?
Euth. No; they do not.
Soc. Then there are some things which they do not venture to say and do: for they do not venture to argue that the guilty are to be unpunished, but they deny their guilt, do they not?
Euth. Yes.
Soc. Then they do not argue that the evil-doer should not be punished, but they argue about the fact of who the evil-doer is, and what he did and when?
Euth. True.
[...]
Soc. But they will be sure to listen if they find that you are a good speaker. There was a notion that came into my mind while you were speaking; I said to myself: "Well, and what if Euthyphro does prove to me that all the gods regarded the death of the serf as unjust, how do I know anything more of the nature of piety and impiety? for granting that this action may be hateful to the gods, still piety and impiety are not adequately defined by these distinctions, for that which is hateful to the gods has been shown to be also pleasing and dear to them." And therefore, Euthyphro, I do not ask you to prove this; I will suppose, if you like, that all the gods condemn and abominate such an action. But I will amend the definition so far as to say that what all the gods hate is impious, and what they love pious or holy; and what some of them love and others hate is both or neither. Shall this be our definition of piety and impiety?
Euth. Why not, Socrates?
Soc. Why not! certainly, as far as I am concerned, Euthyphro, there is no reason why not. But whether this admission will greatly assist you in the task of instructing me as you promised, is a matter for you to consider.
Euth. Yes, I should say that what all the gods love is pious and holy, and the opposite which they all hate, impious.
Soc. Ought we to enquire into the truth of this, Euthyphro, or simply to accept the mere statement on our own authority and that of others? What do you say?
Euth. We should enquire; and I believe that the statement will stand the test of enquiry.
Soc. We shall know better, my good friend, in a little while. The point which I should first wish to understand is whether the pious or holy is beloved by the gods because it is holy, or holy becauseit is beloved of the gods.
Euth. I do not understand your meaning, Socrates.
Soc. I will endeavour to explain: we, speak of carrying and we speak of being carried, of leading and being led, seeing and being seen. You know that in all such cases there is a difference, and you know also in what the difference lies?
Euth. I think that I understand.
Soc. And is not that which is beloved distinct from that which loves?
Euth. Certainly.
Soc. Well; and now tell me, is that which is carried in this state of carrying because it is carried, or for some other reason?
Euth. No; that is the reason.
Soc. And the same is true of what is led and of what is seen?
Euth. True.
Soc. And a thing is not seen because it is visible, but conversely, visible because it is seen; nor is a thing led because it is in the state of being led, or carried because it is in the state of being carried, but the converse of this. And now I think, Euthyphro, that my meaning will be intelligible; and my meaning is, that any state of action or passion implies previous action or passion. It does not become because it is becoming, but it is in a state of becoming because it becomes; neither does it suffer because it is in a state of suffering, but it is in a state of suffering because it suffers. Do you not agree?
Euth. Yes.
Soc. Is not that which is loved in some state either of becoming or suffering?
Euth. Yes.
Soc. And the same holds as in the previous instances; the state of being loved follows the act of being loved, and not the act the state.
Euth. Certainly.
Soc. And what do you say of piety, Euthyphro: is not piety, according to your definition, loved by all the gods?
Euth. Yes.
Soc. Because it is pious or holy, or for some other reason?
Euth. No, that is the reason.
Soc. It is loved because it is holy, not holy because it is loved?
Euth. Yes.
Soc. And that which is dear to the gods is loved by them, and is in a state to be loved of them because it is loved of them?
Euth. Certainly.
Soc. Then that which is dear to the gods, Euthyphro, is not holy, nor is that which is holy loved of God, as you affirm; but they are two different things.
Euth. How do you mean, Socrates?
Soc. I mean to say that the holy has been acknowledge by us to be loved of God because it is holy, not to be holy because it is loved.
Euth. Yes.
Soc. But that which is dear to the gods is dear to them because it is loved by them, not loved by them because it is dear to them.
Euth. True.
Soc. But, friend Euthyphro, if that which is holy is the same with that which is dear to God, and is loved because it is holy, then that which is dear to God would have been loved as being dear to God; but if that which dear to God is dear to him because loved by him, then that which is holy would have been holy because loved by him. But now you see that the reverse is the case, and that they are quite different from one another. For one (theophiles) is of a kind to be loved cause it is loved, and the other (osion) is loved because it is of a kind to be loved. Thus you appear to me, Euthyphro, when I ask you what is the essence of holiness, to offer an attribute only, and not the essence-the attribute of being loved by all the gods. But you still refuse to explain to me the nature of holiness. And therefore, if you please, I will ask you not to hide your treasure, but to tell me once more what holiness or piety really is, whether dear to the gods or not (for that is a matter about which we will not quarrel) and what is impiety?
Euth. I really do not know, Socrates, how to express what I mean. For somehow or other our arguments, on whatever ground we rest them, seem to turn round and walk away from us.
Soc. Your words, Euthyphro, are like the handiwork of my ancestor Daedalus; and if I were the sayer or propounder of them, you might say that my arguments walk away and will not remain fixed where they are placed because I am a descendant of his. But now, since these notions are your own, you must find some other gibe, for they certainly, as you yourself allow, show an inclination to be on the move.
Euth. Nay, Socrates, I shall still say that you are the Daedalus who sets arguments in motion; not I, certainly, but you make them move or go round, for they would never have stirred, as far as I am concerned.
Soc. Then I must be a greater than Daedalus: for whereas he only made his own inventions to move, I move those of other people as well. And the beauty of it is, that I would rather not. For I would give the wisdom of Daedalus, and the wealth of Tantalus, to be able to detain them and keep them fixed. But enough of this. As I perceive that you are lazy, I will myself endeavor to show you how you might instruct me in the nature of piety; and I hope that you will not grudge your labour. Tell me, then-Is not that which is pious necessarily just?
Euth. Yes.
Soc. And is, then, all which is just pious? or, is that which is pious all just, but that which is just, only in part and not all, pious?
Euth. I do not understand you, Socrates.
Soc. And yet I know that you are as much wiser than I am, as you are younger. But, as I was saying, revered friend, the abundance of your wisdom makes you lazy. Please to exert yourself, for there is no real difficulty in understanding me. What I mean I may explain by an illustration of what I do not mean. The poet (Stasinus) sings-

Of Zeus, the author and creator of all these things,
You will not tell: for where there is fear there is also
reverence.

Now I disagree with this poet. Shall I tell you in what respect?
Euth. By all means.
Soc. I should not say that where there is fear there is also reverence; for I am sure that many persons fear poverty and disease, and the like evils, but I do not perceive that they reverence the objects of their fear.
Euth. Very true.
Soc. But where reverence is, there is fear; for he who has a feeling of reverence and shame about the commission of any action, fears and is afraid of an ill reputation.
Euth. No doubt.
Soc. Then we are wrong in saying that where there is fear there is also reverence; and we should say, where there is reverence there is also fear. But there is not always reverence where there is fear; for fear is a more extended notion, and reverence is a part of fear, just as the odd is a part of number, and number is a more extended notion than the odd. I suppose that you follow me now?
Euth. Quite well.
Soc. That was the sort of question which I meant to raise when I asked whether the just is always the pious, or the pious always the just; and whether there may not be justice where there is not piety; for justice is the more extended notion of which piety is only a part. Do you dissent?
Euth. No, I think that you are quite right.
Soc. Then, if piety is a part of justice, I suppose that we should enquire what part? If you had pursued the enquiry in the previous cases; for instance, if you had asked me what is an even number, and what part of number the even is, I should have had no difficulty in replying, a number which represents a figure having two equal sides. Do you not agree?
Euth. Yes, I quite agree.
Soc. In like manner, I want you to tell me what part of justice is piety or holiness, that I may be able to tell Meletus not to do me injustice, or indict me for impiety, as I am now adequately instructed by you in the nature of piety or holiness, and their opposites.
Euth. Piety or holiness, Socrates, appears to me to be that part of justice which attends to the gods, as there is the other part of justice which attends to men.
Soc. That is good, Euthyphro; yet still there is a little point about which I should like to have further information, What is the meaning of "attention"? For attention can hardly be used in the same sense when applied to the gods as when applied to other things. For instance, horses are said to require attention, and not every person is able to attend to them, but only a person skilled in horsemanship. Is it not so?
Euth. Certainly.
Soc. I should suppose that the art of horsemanship is the art of attending to horses?
Euth. Yes.
Soc. Nor is every one qualified to attend to dogs, but only the huntsman?
Euth. True.
Soc. And I should also conceive that the art of the huntsman is the art of attending to dogs?
Euth. Yes.
Soc. As the art of the ox herd is the art of attending to oxen?
Euth. Very true.
Soc. In like manner holiness or piety is the art of attending to the gods?-that would be your meaning, Euthyphro?
Euth. Yes.
Soc. And is not attention always designed for the good or benefit of that to which the attention is given? As in the case of horses, you may observe that when attended to by the horseman's art they are benefited and improved, are they not?
Euth. True.
Soc. As the dogs are benefited by the huntsman's art, and the oxen by the art of the ox herd, and all other things are tended or attended for their good and not for their hurt?
Euth. Certainly, not for their hurt.
Soc. But for their good?
Euth. Of course.
Soc. And does piety or holiness, which has been defined to be the art of attending to the gods, benefit or improve them? Would you say that when you do a holy act you make any of the gods better?
Euth. No, no; that was certainly not what I meant.
Soc. And I, Euthyphro, never supposed that you did. I asked you the question about the nature of the attention, because I thought that you did not.
Euth. You do me justice, Socrates; that is not the sort of attention which I mean.
Soc. Good: but I must still ask what is this attention to the gods which is called piety?
Euth. It is such, Socrates, as servants show to their masters.
Soc. I understand-a sort of ministration to the gods.
Euth. Exactly.
Soc. Medicine is also a sort of ministration or service, having in view the attainment of some object-would you not say of health?
Euth. I should.
Soc. Again, there is an art which ministers to the ship-builder with a view to the attainment of some result?
Euth. Yes, Socrates, with a view to the building of a ship.
Soc. As there is an art which ministers to the housebuilder with a view to the building of a house?
Euth. Yes.
Soc. And now tell me, my good friend, about the art which ministers to the gods: what work does that help to accomplish? For you must surely know if, as you say, you are of all men living the one who is best instructed in religion.
Euth. And I speak the truth, Socrates.
Soc. Tell me then, oh tell me-what is that fair work which the gods do by the help of our ministrations?
Euth. Many and fair, Socrates, are the works which they do.
Soc. Why, my friend, and so are those of a general. But the chief of them is easily told. Would you not say that victory in war is the chief of them?
Euth. Certainly.
Soc. Many and fair, too, are the works of the husbandman, if I am not mistaken; but his chief work is the production of food from the earth?
Euth. Exactly.
Soc. And of the many and fair things done by the gods, which is the chief or principal one?
Euth. I have told you already, Socrates, that to learn all these things accurately will be very tiresome. Let me simply say that piety or holiness is learning, how to please the gods in word and deed, by prayers and sacrifices. Such piety, is the salvation of families and states, just as the impious, which is unpleasing to the gods, is their ruin and destruction.
Soc. I think that you could have answered in much fewer words the chief question which I asked, Euthyphro, if you had chosen. But I see plainly that you are not disposed to instruct me-dearly not: else why, when we reached the point, did you turn, aside? Had you only answered me I should have truly learned of you by this time the-nature of piety. Now, as the asker of a question is necessarily dependent on the answerer, whither he leads-I must follow; and can only ask again, what is the pious, and what is piety? Do you mean that they are a, sort of science of praying and sacrificing?
Euth. Yes, I do.
Soc. And sacrificing is giving to the gods, and prayer is asking of the gods?
Euth. Yes, Socrates.
Soc. Upon this view, then piety is a science of asking and giving?
Euth. You understand me capitally, Socrates.
Soc. Yes, my friend; the. reason is that I am a votary of your science, and give my mind to it, and therefore nothing which you say will be thrown away upon me. Please then to tell me, what is the nature of this service to the gods? Do you mean that we prefer requests and give gifts to them?
Euth. Yes, I do.
Soc. Is not the right way of asking to ask of them what we want?
Euth. Certainly.
Soc. And the right way of giving is to give to them in return what they want of us. There would be no, in an art which gives to any one that which he does not want.
Euth. Very true, Socrates.
Soc. Then piety, Euthyphro, is an art which gods and men have of doing business with one another?
Euth. That is an expression which you may use, if you like.
Soc. But I have no particular liking for anything but the truth. I wish, however, that you would tell me what benefit accrues to the gods from our gifts. There is no doubt about what they give to us; for there is no good thing which they do not give; but how we can give any good thing to them in return is far from being equally clear. If they give everything and we give nothing, that must be an affair of business in which we have very greatly the advantage of them.
Euth. And do you imagine, Socrates, that any benefit accrues to the gods from our gifts?
Soc. But if not, Euthyphro, what is the meaning of gifts which are conferred by us upon the gods?
Euth. What else, but tributes of honour; and, as I was just now saying, what pleases them?
Soc. Piety, then, is pleasing to the gods, but not beneficial or dear to them?
Euth. I should say that nothing could be dearer.
Soc. Then once more the assertion is repeated that piety is dear to the gods?
Euth. Certainly.
Soc. And when you say this, can you wonder at your words not standing firm, but walking away? Will you accuse me of being the Daedalus who makes them walk away, not perceiving that there is another and far greater artist than Daedalus who makes them go round in a circle, and he is yourself; for the argument, as you will perceive, comes round to the same point. Were we not saying that the holy or pious was not the same with that which is loved of the gods? Have you forgotten?
Euth. I quite remember.
Soc. And are you not saying that what is loved of the gods is holy; and is not this the same as what is dear to them-do you see?
Euth. True.
Soc. Then either we were wrong in former assertion; or, if we were right then, we are wrong now.
Euth. One of the two must be true.
Soc. Then we must begin again and ask, What is piety? That is an enquiry which I shall never be weary of pursuing as far as in me lies; and I entreat you not to scorn me, but to apply your mind to the utmost, and tell me the truth. For, if any man knows, you are he; and therefore I must detain you, like Proteus, until you tell. If you had not certainly known the nature of piety and impiety, I am confident that you would never, on behalf of a serf, have charged your aged father with murder. You would not have run such a risk of doing wrong in the sight of the gods, and you would have had too much respect for the opinions of men. I am sure, therefore, that you know the nature of piety and impiety. Speak out then, my dear Euthyphro, and do not hide your knowledge.
Euth. Another time, Socrates; for I am in a hurry, and must go now.
Soc. Alas! my companion, and will you leave me in despair? I was hoping that you would instruct me in the nature of piety and impiety; and then I might have cleared myself of Meletus and his indictment. I would have told him that I had been enlightened by Euthyphro, and had given up rash innovations and speculations, in which I indulged only through ignorance, and that now I am about to lead a better life.
The Gecko
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Posted 05/07/03 - 07:20 PM:
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#2
I find that I disagree with Plato on two points:

A) "Euth. I should rather say that these are the questions which they are always arguing, especially in courts of law: they commit all sorts of crimes, and there is nothing which they will not do or say in their own defence.
Soc. But do they admit their guilt, Euthyphro, and yet say that they ought not to be punished?
Euth. No; they do not.
Soc. Then there are some things which they do not venture to say and do: for they do not venture to argue that the guilty are to be unpunished, but they deny their guilt, do they not?
Euth. Yes."

I think the very act of pleading insanity shows how one can admit their guilt (I killed the man) and ask not to be punished (it wasn't my fault). An example of such a case (although not with insanity) is Lemrick Nelson's claim that he was drunk when he stabbed Yankel Rosenbaum in the Crown Heights Pogrom in the early 90's - he admits his guilt ("I stabbed the Jew") and asks not to be punished as severely (I was drunk when it happened).

B) "Soc. We shall know better, my good friend, in a little while. The point which I should first wish to understand is whether the pious or holy is beloved by the gods because it is holy, or holy becauseit is beloved of the gods.
Euth. I do not understand your meaning, Socrates.
Soc. I will endeavour to explain: we, speak of carrying and we speak of being carried, of leading and being led, seeing and being seen. You know that in all such cases there is a difference, and you know also in what the difference lies?
Euth. I think that I understand.
Soc. And is not that which is beloved distinct from that which loves?
Euth. Certainly.
Soc. Well; and now tell me, is that which is carried in this state of carrying because it is carried, or for some other reason?
Euth. No; that is the reason.
Soc. And the same is true of what is led and of what is seen?
Euth. True.
Soc. And a thing is not seen because it is visible, but conversely, visible because it is seen; nor is a thing led because it is in the state of being led, or carried because it is in the state of being carried, but the converse of this. And now I think, Euthyphro, that my meaning will be intelligible; and my meaning is, that any state of action or passion implies previous action or passion. It does not become because it is becoming, but it is in a state of becoming because it becomes; neither does it suffer because it is in a state of suffering, but it is in a state of suffering because it suffers. Do you not agree?
Euth. Yes.
Soc. Is not that which is loved in some state either of becoming or suffering?
Euth. Yes.
Soc. And the same holds as in the previous instances; the state of being loved follows the act of being loved, and not the act the state.
Euth. Certainly.
Soc. And what do you say of piety, Euthyphro: is not piety, according to your definition, loved by all the gods?
Euth. Yes.
Soc. Because it is pious or holy, or for some other reason?
Euth. No, that is the reason.
Soc. It is loved because it is holy, not holy because it is loved?
Euth. Yes."

I disagree with Plato flat out on this. His premise is that some things are "loved" by God through a virtue of their own; this seems to imply that God wants those things, and that He is incomplete until He "gets" them. Seeing as how this is not in accord with my view of God, I must differ from Plato. God, to me, does not "love" things through their own virtues, but of their benefit to the Universe, and, specifically, us.

Consequently, their is no way for something to be determined as "holy" if God has decreed it so.


PS: It's late, and I didn't read the rest of the conversation, so I apologize if my objections were addressed later on. I'll get to the rest tomorrow.
Paul
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Posted 05/07/03 - 09:29 PM:
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#3
I think the very act of pleading insanity shows how one can admit their guilt (I killed the man) and ask not to be punished (it wasn't my fault). An example of such a case (although not with insanity) is Lemrick Nelson's claim that he was drunk when he stabbed Yankel Rosenbaum in the Crown Heights Pogrom in the early 90's - he admits his guilt ("I stabbed the Jew") and asks not to be punished as severely (I was drunk when it happened).

I would argue that such people aren't admiting guilt. (The legal plea may be guilty, but I'm refering to admiting responsibility of the self for the action.) They admit they killed, but see themselves as the exceptions to the idea that killing is murder by trying to come up with circumstances which are extraordinary and show that they themselves did not do it. In your example, the guy says a really drunk version of him did it and argues that he's not morally guilty because he's not the same person as the drunk version. Temporary insanity, you might say, is the equivilent of what a plea of temporary demonic possession might've been a thousand years ago. The person says they aren't responsible because something which is not really them did it in their body. Their justifications may often be absurd, but they're debating that they murdered rather than debating that there are in general lots of murders which should be punished. (Only the rare psychopath will say that murder in general is nothing worth raising an eye about.)

As well, these people will all argue that someone else who murders should be punished for it, and I think that's all Socrates needs for his point.

I disagree with Plato flat out on this. His premise is that some things are "loved" by God through a virtue of their own; this seems to imply that God wants those things, and that He is incomplete until He "gets" them. Seeing as how this is not in accord with my view of God, I must differ from Plato. God, to me, does not "love" things through their own virtues, but of their benefit to the Universe, and, specifically, us.

That would lead to the same conclusion as Socrates in the argument, since if what you say is true then things are good/pious based on their benefit to the universe or us. You're saying that god doesn't arbitrarily make things good or bad, but rather makes them good or bad because those things already have certain qualities (their benefit to the universe or to us) which we might as well simply identify as the qualities of being good or bad. That's the exact same point Socrates is making in the argument. (Of course Plato's own original ideas of ethics are another topic against which your point would be more important... but against Socrates I don't think it does anything but help him.)
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