Physics without laws: Philosophy Forums

Physics without laws
Or a law without a law

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Physics without laws

MathematicalPhysics Wizard
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Posted 10/10/09 - 04:19 AM: Subject: Physics without laws	#1
I heard a lecture from someone from cambridge physics department (not dampt, the other one) that said that Wheeler argued that there are no physical laws as such, but self organising laws, i.e that these laws evolve with time and don't stay put, e.g, the speed of light will change with time, different physical postulates may alter with time as well, with more and more experiments under way. It's like a type of evolution thinking on behalf of the late John Wheeler, if the phenomenas change with time and the laws govern them change as well, then this means the universe isn't determinstic not even probablistic determinstic, unless we have a hindsight as to what "laws" morph into other laws, and their chances of changing into them with time. This sort of thinking is sounding like anthropic one, cause we know from our society's rules are changing with time, perhaps wheeler depicts the universe as anrchistic/chaotic one as our own laws of physics are mere need for us humans for order... Just some thoughts.
"What kind of a bomb is this? The exploding kind." Peter Sellers

wuliheron
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Posted 10/10/09 - 07:34 PM:	#2
That's John Wheeler's "Participatory Anthropic Principle", a type of consensual reality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Archibald_Wheeler What the wiki article does not go into is the tremendous influence Wheeler has had on quantum research since the 1970s. He argued that conservation of information is at least as important for quanta as conservation of energy, possibly more so, and that research should be done on quantum information. An anarchistic interpretation might be that, because reality is consensual, even the past can be changed without any apparent discontinuity. We decide what the past is and it becomes whatever we decide. We decide what the laws of physics used to be, and that becomes what they were. It reminds me of an vaudeville joke. A farmer hears something upset his chickens and goes out to investigate. He calls out, "Is anyone there?" The reply comes, "Nobody here but us chickens!"

play
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Posted 10/10/09 - 11:24 PM:	#3
Maybe the Universe is expanding because we're looking for the edge. Who knows?
There once was a man who said so, "It seems that I know that I know. But what I would like to see Is the I that knows me when I know that I know that I know."

Caldwell
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Posted 10/11/09 - 12:39 AM:	#4
Lesson learned from the recent moon blasting: Don't show dramatic computer graphics of what could happen before it happens because then the viewers would expect exactly what they see in the video.

wuliheron
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Posted 10/11/09 - 03:20 AM:	#5
play wrote: Maybe the Universe is expanding because we're looking for the edge. Who knows? LOL, or maybe because too much togetherness drove us apart!

vander
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Posted 10/12/09 - 10:00 PM: Subject: Laws of the Universe	#6
The most fundamenal laws of the Univere are: construction through convergence; nuclear fusion ss a process of construction through absorption within the context of the increasing density of impacting emission; the stability of atomic structure being relative to the density of the impacting emission; all attraction (including gravity) being caused by the absorption and exchange of emission via the emission fields of objects; the existence of "numeric symmetry" from the microscsle to the macroscale and into the realm of biology. See, "The Logic of the Universe (Debunking Physics and Discovering the Theory of Everything as the Paradign of Science", which is located at: http://members.westnet.com.au/paradigm/forever.pdf vander

nousPLOTINU
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Posted 10/13/09 - 04:49 AM:	#7
Would the Universe remain homogeneous?
It is not that I think I know, it is that I know when I think.

James S Saint
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Posted 10/26/09 - 10:37 AM:	#8
nousPLOTINU wrote: Would the Universe remain homogeneous? No!

rigelrover
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Posted 10/26/09 - 10:59 AM:	#9
This would be consistent with differentiated laws emerging in the first place (i.e. the ones that we observe now). If laws did change, universally, we would then have need of a law describing how they were allowed to change (if not how they will, in fact, change). That is there is a meta-law (which is a law of nature in its own right) that governs the nature of the speed of light, for instance, and we have not properly allowed for it in our modeling of reality. For causal laws to actually change we would require that a free agent(s) has wittingly acted such that outcomes would be different than the status quo allows. So either there is such an agent, or there are meta/unseen laws which are yet to be discovered. Which does he mean?
I am more interested in questions than answers; dialog than dictation. If we can reasonably believe that there is not just a breach, but a fundamentally unclosable gap between the individual mind and the ultimate nature of the reality; the primordial thing in itself, then 'true' mystery does exist.

reincarnated
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Posted 11/07/09 - 09:09 AM:	#10
MathematicalPhysics Wizard wrote: if the phenomenas change with time and the laws govern them change as well, then this means the universe isn't determinstic This does not follow. The universe could be completely deterministic, this does not mean that all so-called physical laws must be static laws. The laws could be changing, with a set of "meta-laws" which determine how they change. All completely deterministic.
crumpled bits of paper, filled with imperfect thoughts... we all talk a different language, talking in defence... and if you don't give up, and don't give in, you may just be ok... (Mike & The Mechanics, "The Living Years")

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