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Physical Attraction
Biological or Social?

Physical Attraction

skillz
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0 of 1 people found this post helpful Posted 12/23/05 - 12:15 PM: Subject: Physical Attraction	#1
A common notion seems to be that physical attraction is geared toward reproduction. If so, then how can one who doesn't wish to reproduce find anyone physically attractive? How do people find others beautiful looking/sexually attractive if they're never planning to reproduce? Why would someone who appears to have good genes still be relevent?
_____________________ "A ninja must be able to read underneath the underneath." -Kakashi "Attempting to debate with a person who has abandoned reason is like giving medicine to the dead." -Thomas Paine

Reformed Nihilist
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Posted 12/23/05 - 03:56 PM:	#2
The question assumes that the human mind works in such a way as it holds clear and non-conflicting goals, and that ones conscious goals and desires are the only ones that come into play in ones psyche. This view is rejected by psychology. The fact that addictions exist is proof in itself. An addict may legitimately want to cease their addictive behaviour on a conscious level, but on an unconscious level they are driven to continue unhealthy behaviour. One can make a conscious descision not to reproduce, but still subconsciously be driven by urges to reproduce. If we consider the amidyla, largely responsible for instinctual reactions, it is not surprising that in some cercumstances it overrides the activity in the frontal cortex (which is responsibe for higher thought).
_____________________ Vivian Jaffe: Have you ever transcended space and time? Albert Markovski: Yes... No... Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about. I Heart Huckabees (2004)

skillz
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Posted 12/23/05 - 07:17 PM:	#3
Why is this assumption rejected by psychology? Is it unhealthy to consciously go against subconscious urges? How has the urge to reproduce been proven a subconscious drive?
_____________________ "A ninja must be able to read underneath the underneath." -Kakashi "Attempting to debate with a person who has abandoned reason is like giving medicine to the dead." -Thomas Paine

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Posted 12/23/05 - 08:16 PM:	#4
Well, you don't even need the teleology in there. The intention to reproduce isn't in the sex drive itself. The sex drive only wants sex. Reproduction is something that just happens.
_____________________ "To create man was a fine and original idea; but to add sheep was a tautology." Mark Twain

skillz
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Posted 12/23/05 - 10:15 PM:	#5
What is physical attraction? Do people subconsciously need to be physically attracted to someone in order to have sex with them?
_____________________ "A ninja must be able to read underneath the underneath." -Kakashi "Attempting to debate with a person who has abandoned reason is like giving medicine to the dead." -Thomas Paine

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Posted 12/24/05 - 03:41 PM:	#6
skillz wrote: Why is this assumption rejected by psychology? Because all the evidence shows that it is not true. Is it unhealthy to consciously go against subconscious urges? I suppose it is i some cases, but not always. I might get angry and subconciously want to kill someone but it would be considered unhealthy to do so (in most cases). How has the urge to reproduce been proven a subconscious drive? http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/GESUND/ARCHIV/S... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct What proof are you asking for? What reason would you have for doubting it? If you want a detailed understanding, colleges and universities offer courses in human sexuality and evolutionary theory, basic psychology and basic physiology. I would think that even a high school level biology class would give the basics, but maybe not.
_____________________ Vivian Jaffe: Have you ever transcended space and time? Albert Markovski: Yes... No... Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about. I Heart Huckabees (2004)

malneyugnfl
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Posted 12/24/05 - 04:40 PM:	#7
Physical attraction can be emotional, biological....It's complex. Liking someone's personality will make them more physically attractive and vice versa.Seeing somebody for alomg time makes them more attractive and some past trauma like getting raped or having a horribly cruel sister can effect what you find attractive.You don't need to be subconciously attracted to someone in order to have sex with them. If you choose to have sex, you can. That's why we have that part of our brain that can override our subconcious urges, even though it's far from perfect.

malneyugnfl
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Posted 12/24/05 - 04:46 PM:	#8
Reproduction isn't just influenced by a sex drive. It's influenced by lots of things: Like maybe I'd want to have a baby to keep up a family business, or to help on the farm, or something.. And, it's not necessarily unhealthy to go against a subconcious urge. That's the reason we have the thinking and self aware part(s) of our brain. We just need to strike a balance between acting on the concious and subconcious because they're both important and intertwined.

skillz
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Posted 12/24/05 - 05:29 PM:	#9
Reformed Nihilist wrote: I suppose it is i some cases, but not always. I might get angry and subconciously want to kill someone but it would be considered unhealthy to do so (in most cases). http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/GESUND/ARCHIV/S... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct What reason would you have for doubting it? If you want a detailed understanding, colleges and universities offer courses in human sexuality and evolutionary theory, basic psychology and basic physiology. I would think that even a high school level biology class would give the basics, but maybe not. Thank you for the links, there's certainly interesting stuff in there. Though there didn't seem to much on physical attraction It mentioned something about "self-concept and body imagery", but that's only hinting I what I guess I'm trying to figure out. With the advent of cosmetics, cosmetic surgery, & fashion, beauty seems less biological and more contrived or social/learned. Existentially, can't someone choose what they find beautiful or ugly or is uncontrollable like birth? Would a woman viewing random pictures of men, some perfectly virile & some who were born sterile at birth (with her unaware of coarse), find the sterile men less or unattractive? And the would the same experiment with men viewing woman turn up the same results? malneyugnfl wrote: Physical attraction can be emotional, biological....It's complex. Liking someone's personality will make them more physically attractive and vice versa. What about on a purely visual scale, w/o knowing thier personality or anything about an individual other than the way they appear? How do blind people find others physically attractive?
_____________________ "A ninja must be able to read underneath the underneath." -Kakashi "Attempting to debate with a person who has abandoned reason is like giving medicine to the dead." -Thomas Paine

malneyugnfl
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Posted 12/24/05 - 05:55 PM:	#10
Well, if it were on a purely visual scale physical visual attraction would still be influenced by the mind, emotions and genetics. For example, If you don't know anything about a person except the way they look, you would subconciously use your past experiences to associate something including beauty to a person's appearance. I said physical attraction is a complex thing. PPersonality and even looks(although they are very important) is just one of the things that influence us. For example, a person's smell(detectable and undetectable[pheromones]) influences PHYSICAL attraction. THis leads into..... Blind people find others physically attractive using other physical senses (don't forget personality stuff) like touch(does the way a person feel appeal to the blind person), sound(have you ever heard those voices that bring to mind lust?), smell.....

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Posted 12/24/05 - 11:22 PM:	#11
skillz wrote: Thank you for the links, there's certainly interesting stuff in there. Though there didn't seem to much on physical attraction It mentioned something about "self-concept and body imagery", but that's only hinting I what I guess I'm trying to figure out. With the advent of cosmetics, cosmetic surgery, & fashion, beauty seems less biological and more contrived or social/learned. Existentially, can't someone choose what they find beautiful or ugly or is uncontrollable like birth? Would a woman viewing random pictures of men, some perfectly virile & some who were born sterile at birth (with her unaware of coarse), find the sterile men less or unattractive? And the would the same experiment with men viewing woman turn up the same results? What about on a purely visual scale, w/o knowing thier personality or anything about an individual other than the way they appear? How do blind people find others physically attractive? Try this link, it might answer a little more of what you're asking. http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Human_mating_stra... It's tricky to draw the line between learned and genetic behaviours, but that isn't what you were referring to originally. You seemed to be talking about conscious vs. subconscious drives. Still alot of gaps in our knowledge of the brain and how it functions. It's funny, but there was a study done in which blind women who were polled said that they would prefer to have a husband that was handsome over one who was plain. It seems like there is a drive for social legitimacy subtley meshed with the urge to choose a mate. But saying that sexual drives are instinctual is not the same as saying they are based purely on visuals. Smells, behaviours, vocal qualities, or pretty much any stimulous could trigger an instinctive reaction. It is reasonable to think that being treated nicely (complimented, for example) can trigger sexual drives. To the question of 'choosing' what is beautiful, I think the answer is yes, but not directly or easily. We can train our subconscious minds to like things. If a person wanted to train an attraction to fat women (assuming that he didn't naturally have one), I would recommend that he find a community of men who have that taste, and to limit sexual encounters to women that meet that criteria. Talk alot about how beautiful heavy women are (even if you don't believe it at first, you will eventually). A person can change all types of subconscious predispositions through a little (or alot of) conscious self-progamming. I personally don't know why one would want to alter their sexual attraction, unless it was unbearably out of the social norm (pedophilia). If not, why wouldn't one just let 'nature take it's course'.
_____________________ Vivian Jaffe: Have you ever transcended space and time? Albert Markovski: Yes... No... Uh, time, not space... No, I don't know what you're talking about. I Heart Huckabees (2004)

skillz
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Posted 12/25/05 - 01:16 AM:	#12
Reformed Nihilist wrote: To the question of 'choosing' what is beautiful, I think the answer is yes, but not directly or easily. We can train our subconscious minds to like things. If a person wanted to train an attraction to fat women (assuming that he didn't naturally have one), I would recommend that he find a community of men who have that taste, and to limit sexual encounters to women that meet that criteria. Talk alot about how beautiful heavy women are (even if you don't believe it at first, you will eventually). A person can change all types of subconscious predispositions through a little (or alot of) conscious self-progamming. I personally don't know why one would want to alter their sexual attraction, unless it was unbearably out of the social norm (pedophilia). If not, why wouldn't one just let 'nature take it's course'. Well, I was trying to let nature take it's coarse, but it doesn't add up. I feel as if I've already been ingrained with "fascist beauty standards" of women & men that are unhealthy & unwholesome. I wanted to find out if biologically I would always be attracted to these types of objectifyable and media-inspired physiques or if there was a chance that I could self-program what I think should be considered beautiful w/o risk of upsetting some instinctual biological balance. But I think your answer has summed up what I hoping for anyways
_____________________ "A ninja must be able to read underneath the underneath." -Kakashi "Attempting to debate with a person who has abandoned reason is like giving medicine to the dead." -Thomas Paine

Gaia_Guerrilla
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Posted 01/21/06 - 09:13 PM:	#13
Beauty in the eye of the beholder! I find the idea of self-programming your beauty standards as beautiful in itself, because markets target their buyers based on the instincts the buyers can't control, moral or not, that'll separate them from their money or at least draw them in for it. Those markets will then create a cruel and artificial standard for the models / servicers that work for them, irregardless of how those standards fit with the needs of society. We see in all business this wave of jobs that demand women whom do their hair and watch their wait in a certain way. While they're at it, select the best faces, biological or by plastic surgery. When people want independance from markets telling them what they should like, they'll program it themselves and the markets will reflect healthier choices. I believe I accomplished this myself, without so much research as to what I was doing. I felt strongly that I want to change my perspective, and without realizing it I was manipulating my habits / environment to do so. I'm amazed at how I'm attracted to women that are "on the heavy side," have acne / braces, have healthy attitudes. I'm turned off just like a switch when I see someone fit the model standard without concern for health. I wasn't always that way. I've had attractive women tell me they're surprised that I don't stare at their breasts or don't "make a move" or don't even seem to give them the attention they're used to from guys. (A lot of women think I'm gay when they meet me). But certain over-weight women make me nervous and jittery. I obsess over them and go over-board romantically (chocolates, etc). Unfortunately that makes a problem for me, because they get skeptical and wonder if my motives are more superficial than pure sex. Strangely enough, I'm also turned on by women who can't reproduce. (Probably from my past negativity toward overpopulation). I'm also admittedly seeking superficial means to attract others (heard of Pheralure?) But all of this doesn't really answer your original question. I imagine that someone seeking good genes wants someone physically fit. Looking at a lot of our preferred roles in movies (Lara Croft, Arnold Schwarzeneggar), attraction shows that. But advocates of the selfish gene theory would also say that attraction for reproduction is not so much for our own health. Which brings me to a darker area. Nature could select the more physically capable male, for his ability to rape women (dark as it may be- it's valid). It's theorized that Genghis Khan was one of the most successful in serial rape throughout history, and is the most common ancestor traced in our world population. Meanwhile, women that can fend off anyone except the man that manages to rape her is selected, so that the most successful gene is the combination of women that fend people off and men that can successfully attack. Morbid, but as I said a theory that isn't necessarily factual. Edited by Gaia_Guerrilla on 01/22/06 - 05:59 AM
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minorityslam
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Posted 04/23/08 - 08:06 PM:	#14
try out >attract rx review, that stuff is really good.
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