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xzJoel
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Posted 06/25/09 - 08:06 AM:	#31
PB, Since we agree, I respond for limited purposes. My statement was in the context of two sorts of things that are called opinions. Me in post 11 wrote: Many things are opinions, but people need to know where opinions end. Once they have moved from a pure opinion to a conclusion based on that opinion, their conclusion either correctly follows from their facts/opinions and is “right” or the conclusions do not follow from their facts/conclusion and are “wrong.” If I was unclear (as I often am) I apologize. I am actually fairly well amused with your notion that you can assert a conclusionary statement and call it an opinion. "All rocks are blue." Your honesty that you did not engage in empirical observation is appreciated. (It also avoids the problem of induction if you used a representative sample.) It is true that my verification principal was not implicit in my original post and it was fair game for you to assume a complex statement with no relationship to the world and call it an opinion. On a side note, I find it odd that you would consider an assumption to be identical to an opinion. I think of opinions as being similar to assumptions, but different in that an assumption is theoretical (that is it is logically true but makes no claim as to facts) whereas an opinion generally is directed at telling us something true about the world or about some thing (or idea). In any event, I stand corrected to whatever extent my earlier posts suggested that assumptions are factually accurate (that is to say "are factually true") merely because they are assumptions. Assumptions must logically be taken to be the case in a proof, but an assumption gains no factually true value thereby.
Make a joyous noise onto the lord... Not a good one, just a joyous one.

Postmodern Beatnik
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Posted 06/25/09 - 08:57 AM:	#32
xzJoel wrote: I am actually fairly well amused with your notion that you can assert a conclusionary statement and call it an opinion. I prefer to call it an assessment or an assertion rather than a conclusion. To me, "conclusion" suggests that there was some sort of argument given. This is not to say, however, that calling such opinions "conclusions" is invalid: a complex opinion based on a cursory investigation, for example, seems to warrant such a term (as it would be quite normal to say that one had drawn a conclusion from said investigation). xzJoel wrote: Your honesty that you did not engage in empirical observation is appreciated. (It also avoids the problem of induction if you used a representative sample.) Well, terminal boneitis is a fictional disease. Empirical observation and induction really wouldn't have been able to get me anywhere close to (1). xzJoel wrote: It is true that my verification principal was not implicit in my original post and it was fair game for you to assume a complex statement with no relationship to the world and call it an opinion. Indeed. But I will again agree that if you want to use your verification principle to decide whether or not something is an opinion, then opinions are -- by that definition -- not truth-apt. Such a usage seems odd to me, but of course you are free to use the word that way so long as you make your intentions clear. xzJoel wrote: On a side note, I find it odd that you would consider an assumption to be identical to an opinion. I don't. As I said to dman1 in post #28, the definitions of "opinion," "assumption," and "presumption" overlap: something that falls under the definition of one of those words may also fall under the definition of another. But I would not say that they are all the same. Synonyms, after all, need only be similar -- not identical.
"An ideal form of government is democracy tempered with assassination." --Voltaire "If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." --Thomas Jefferson

Maxvilly
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Posted 07/02/09 - 08:54 AM:	#33
To me there are opinions that are more correct than other opinions. If I ask for advice as an example, "can I get your opinion on "what to do with my failing marriage" aimed to a friend (or an expert), then I expect an objective state of mind. I want an opinion, not personal taste. But we all have different personal traits and strengths. Some people put their own feelings and emotionals in to opinions. And forget validating variables. I am always looking for the better answer, more so than the less better(wrong?), or none answer. None answer is what I get, when I want to feel no part of it, there are no better, and less better. As we see things from an outsiders perspective, not part of the problem, with no variables to work with upon. I know others are afraid of these variable thought process, as I live by these metrics. And, I am afraid to lose them. Too me it's as a scale for me, to analyze things on what makes the most sense. And it's just the better alternative, not some good vs. evil type to look at things. Often the answers aren't the 1 or 2, but the 1.3 or 1.7. I strongly believe in ethics, as I see nothing mysterious with it at all. It's just the most positive out come possible for the majority of human beings, and I have no part of that society, and I see it from an insiders perspective but put my emoitions away. I try to think outside of the box. But as with everybody I have my weaknesses, this one I see as a strong factor, but I know I lack in areas, as social skills, and the convince and influence of friends, thinkers and others around me. Edited by Maxvilly on 07/02/09 - 09:54 AM
I had details here, ones.

dman1
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Posted 07/04/09 - 12:11 AM:	#34
I've come to the conclusion that an opinion cannot be true or false, because of its subjective nature. Once something enters the realm of objective measurement it becomes a fact or falsity. The reason being, people can believe in facts and falsities. just because someone states that it is their opinion does not truly make it an opinion. That's the difference between a belief and an opinion. An opinion, by definition, either cannot be proven or has not yet been proven or disproved. Once it becomes proven or disproved, it becomes a fact or a falsity.

xzJoel
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Posted 07/04/09 - 07:42 AM:	#35
dman1 wrote: I've come to the conclusion that an opinion cannot be true or false, because of its subjective nature. Once something enters the realm of objective measurement it becomes a fact or falsity. The reason being, people can believe in facts and falsities. just because someone states that it is their opinion does not truly make it an opinion. That's the difference between a belief and an opinion. An opinion, by definition, either cannot be proven or has not yet been proven or disproved. Once it becomes proven or disproved, it becomes a fact or a falsity. You cannot measure the following: Once upon a time there was a man whose name was Jim. He had a daughter Suzet. His daughter had a son Bob. In your opinion, is the Bob of the above story Jim's grandson? If you say, "Bob is not Jim's grandson because Bob is Suzet's son", you'd just be wrong. There is no ruler in the world that could measure the relationship between Bob and Jim, but that doesn't change the ability to assign a truth value to the statement, "Bob is not Jim's grandson." Granted, if you wanted to be really radical and allege that characters in a fictitious story aren't real and therefore are not capable of having a sentence referring to them be either true or false, you could argue that it is still a matter of opinion. I don't imagine that you live your life that way, however. Furthermore, nothing says that the above story is fictitious.
Make a joyous noise onto the lord... Not a good one, just a joyous one.

dman1
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Posted 07/04/09 - 05:16 PM:	#36
xzJoel wrote: You cannot measure the following: Once upon a time there was a man whose name was Jim. He had a daughter Suzet. His daughter had a son Bob. In your opinion, is the Bob of the above story Jim's grandson? If you say, "Bob is not Jim's grandson because Bob is Suzet's son", you'd just be wrong. There is no ruler in the world that could measure the relationship between Bob and Jim, but that doesn't change the ability to assign a truth value to the statement, "Bob is not Jim's grandson." Granted, if you wanted to be really radical and allege that characters in a fictitious story aren't real and therefore are not capable of having a sentence referring to them be either true or false, you could argue that it is still a matter of opinion. I don't imagine that you live your life that way, however. Furthermore, nothing says that the above story is fictitious. Well uhh, measurement is a synonym for judgment. So yes, you can objectively measure whether or not Bob is a genetic grandson of Jim.

xzJoel
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Posted 07/04/09 - 11:03 PM:	#37
How do you measure whether someone's name is Jim? You seem to have gone from the extreme of thinking that no opinion can be wrong to another extreme of "the only knowledge possible is that resulting from measurement."
Make a joyous noise onto the lord... Not a good one, just a joyous one.

dman1
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Posted 07/05/09 - 05:23 PM:	#38
xzJoel wrote: How do you measure whether someone's name is Jim? You seem to have gone from the extreme of thinking that no opinion can be wrong to another extreme of "the only knowledge possible is that resulting from measurement." I haven't gone to any extreme. You can measure whether someone's name is Jim or not by looking at his birth certificate and making a judgment. As i said with that last post, measurement and judgment are synonyms. You seem to look at measurement as being something that takes place with a ruler. That's not the case. A measurement is simply a comparison by a standard.

Postmodern Beatnik
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Posted 07/06/09 - 04:31 AM:	#39
dman1 wrote: I've come to the conclusion that an opinion cannot be true or false, because of its subjective nature. No, you started with that opinion and haven't changed your mind despite the fact that your reasons have been thoroughly debunked. dman1 wrote: Just because someone states that it is their opinion does not truly make it an opinion. If they're telling the truth, it does. The only way one can say "my opinion is x" and be wrong is if x is not really one's opinion. dman1 wrote: That's the difference between a belief and an opinion. An opinion, by definition, either cannot be proven or has not yet been proven or disproved. Once it becomes proven or disproved, it becomes a fact or a falsity. This undermines your own position: Since you allow here that an opinion could eventually be proven or disproven, some opinions must take propositions (i.e., truth-apt statements) as their content. And those propositions are either true or false regardless of whether or not their truth and falsity has been determined yet. (Some types of propositions are controversial in this regard, such as future contingents and statements suffering from presuppositional failure. But the general point stands.) dman1 wrote: Well uhh, measurement is a synonym for judgment. Not unless you're using some sort of private dictionary.
"An ideal form of government is democracy tempered with assassination." --Voltaire "If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." --Thomas Jefferson

dman1
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Posted 07/06/09 - 07:52 AM:	#40
Postmodern Beatnik wrote: No, you started with that opinion and haven't changed your mind despite the fact that your reasons have been thoroughly debunked. Oh yeah? So you know exactly what I'm thinking at all times? My opinion hasn't been debunked at all, that's the beauty of opinion. Please tell me more about what im thinking. Postmodern Beatnik wrote: If they're telling the truth, it does. The only way one can say "my opinion is x" and be wrong is if x is not really one's opinion. That made no sense in regard to your argument. You're arguing for opinions being capable of rightness and wrongness in the sense that people can have an opinion that is either true or false. So how exactly is it that the ONLY way one can have a right or wrong opinion is if they lie about what their opinion is? The point is that people can believe in facts or lies. Their opinion itself cannot be right or wrong, 'cause it is simply a state of belief based on perception. Postmodern Beatnik wrote: This undermines your own position: Since you allow here that an opinion could eventually be proven or disproven, some opinions must take propositions (i.e., truth-apt statements) as their content. And those propositions are either true or false regardless of whether or not their truth and falsity has been determined yet. (Some types of propositions are controversial in this regard, such as future contingents and statements suffering from presuppositional failure. But the general point stands.) Disproven isn't a word. And once it becomes proved or disproved, it becomes a fact or a lie (People can believe in facts or lies. An opinion exists when there is no way to objectively measure a belief as being a fact or a lie with means available). But you can't measure someones opinion, their belief without proof, in terms of true or false/right or wrong. Its all about perception, and we live in a world of 6.5 billion different perceptions. I understand what you're saying, but that's only true if you believe that everything must either be true or false. I think it's irrelevant because you can't prove truth and falsity to 6.5 billion people. You would have to first establish the existence of a universal truth, which you will never. Postmodern Beatnik wrote: Not unless you're using some sort of private dictionary. http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/measure%5Bverb%5D http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/measure

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