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Objectivity of the Senses
Building a better metaphysics

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Objectivity of the Senses

Aetixintro
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Posted 08/28/09 - 11:33 AM: Subject: Objectivity of the Senses	#1
I would like to see the efforts in metaphysics being cumulative rather than having every argument starting from scratch. One of the presumptions to this, perhaps alongside the metaphysics computer-database, is being in the right mind. So to start, making assumptions on colours, one needs to be correct on the colour and its corresponding wavelength. I don't buy it if you mix the colours or are otherwise incorrect about perceptions where we have sound confirmations and consensus. Purple is purple, blue is blue, and black is black. The same way, I sense, there may be possibilities in qualifying cognitions as well and this is the very thing. The skeptic is happy to assert that the reality is illusion and so, but if that is the case what is reality supposed to name? What is an illusion if there is no reality? This thread is all about making visible a foundation for the Babel's tower in metaphysics and at the same putting the skeptics soundly into the corner. You can, I guess, rightfully question all the metaphysical issues, but there is a difference in questioning and refuting. Edit: I usually pay great respect to the way language has evolved. I hold that most words reflect real concerns when they have arisen. I don't mean to make this metaphysics a matter of a phil. of language argument, but I rather like to point to the underlying basis for making the words happen. If we consider Berkeley's ideas versus Leibniz' monads, I certainly find that Leibniz is making a better point than Berkeley in that ideas are held in people's minds making the argmuent counterintuitive while monads, you know, have this unknown quality to it that make the basic building bricks in nature just as strings in string theory. Edited by Aetixintro on 08/28/09 - 11:48 AM
Efficacy of "for since it is at present manifest to me that even bodies are not properly known by the senses nor by the faculty of imagination, but by the understanding alone" - Descartes, Meditation II I'm always wanting more, Anything I haven't got, Everything, I want it all, I just can't stop - The Cure, Want

CygnusX1
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Posted 08/28/09 - 01:28 PM:	#2
Sorry... I'm not clear as to the aims of your post? Is it to hopefully direct metaphysical argument towards a common goal? Or for it to be more constructive? If so, you may have been better placed to title it "objectivity of ideas?"
You are neither earth, water, fire, air or even ether. For liberation know yourself as consisting of consciousness, the witness of these. [The Song of Ashtavakra (Ashtavakra Samhita) Chapter 1.3]

Cadrache
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Posted 08/28/09 - 02:10 PM:	#3
It looks like we are removing the meaning of 'meta' from metaphysical. I personally like the corner since you can see more things happening. No eyes exist within my head that is positioned relative to my 'forwards' thus seeing backwards. So you see, any polythiestic acumulation of actual function is invalid if you cannot claim a monistic TOE.
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion. _____________________________________________ Truth is want. - The internal state of matters. Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.

Cadrache
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Posted 08/28/09 - 02:12 PM:	#4
Black cats no longer exist because black and cat are two seperate functions. Sorry... I would actually rephrase your request as claiming that we should chop off all the things you personally don't agree with when it comes to creating a specified terminology. And then call it 'reality'. To me that is the true illusion.
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion. _____________________________________________ Truth is want. - The internal state of matters. Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.

Cadrache
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Posted 08/28/09 - 02:15 PM:	#5
Because we can no longer actually claim black cats exist because you require a poly-istic functional foundation to actually observe reality - then using a specified terminology by way of mutual agreement does not yield a verifiable reality.
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion. _____________________________________________ Truth is want. - The internal state of matters. Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.

Cadrache
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Posted 08/28/09 - 02:18 PM:	#6
Fine.... I'll take a more physical example. You require a specific background light in order for you specific definition of 'color' to be valid. A green apple in a green room doesn't exist. There are a few biological nuances as well - but we'll disregard those at this time.
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion. _____________________________________________ Truth is want. - The internal state of matters. Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.

Cadrache
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Posted 08/28/09 - 02:20 PM:	#7
This means that the physical color cannot be derived as a specific wavelength but rather wavelength 1 - wavelength 2. And that is merely for the supposed physical behavior of photons!
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion. _____________________________________________ Truth is want. - The internal state of matters. Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.

Aetixintro
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Posted 08/28/09 - 02:22 PM:	#8
This is only a quick reply. Take for instance the assumptions that you put down in the metaphysical argument of reality. Perhaps one can begin the investigation of reality just there and see what one should qualify for getting into the nest level of just that investigation of reality. Cadrache: I find it funny that you call it illusion that which is in just your eyes, head, and opinion. Sure, you can approach the expressions of your consciousness, examine them more closely, contemplate them more thoroughly.
Efficacy of "for since it is at present manifest to me that even bodies are not properly known by the senses nor by the faculty of imagination, but by the understanding alone" - Descartes, Meditation II I'm always wanting more, Anything I haven't got, Everything, I want it all, I just can't stop - The Cure, Want

Cadrache
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Posted 08/28/09 - 02:27 PM:	#9
Which varient did you want? The easiest counter to my statement would to make reference towards switching light sources. This insinuates that my own definiton of 'wavelength 1 - wavelength 2 = green' is flawed in some fashion. Quick reply is resultant since I've been examining the subject of terminology and mutual agreement for the last 2 weeks. It doesn't take much to apply some of the principles I have been looking at and transfer them from 'consciousness' to light. Mostly because at the moment I am looking at it as if 'consciousness' as an object.
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion. _____________________________________________ Truth is want. - The internal state of matters. Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.

Cadrache
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Posted 08/28/09 - 02:29 PM:	#10
The only other 'definitive' statement at the moment is: You cannot apply monistic functions to terminology simply because terminology in itself is a function of poly-thiestic understanding. (ie. Most of the time, you need more then 1 word to define another word.)
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion. _____________________________________________ Truth is want. - The internal state of matters. Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.

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