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Nonsense
The little man who wasn't there.

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Nonsense
brainpharte
Huh?

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Posted 08/24/09 - 02:22 PM:
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#61
Cadrache,

Sorry, but try as I might, I am just not able to construct any meaning from your last two posts.

Whatever do you mean by: "And if we threw semantics in the mix?" I thought I was talking about semantics the whole time.

I don't know what "postpriori" means.


And when you say: So instead of Shelley's being nonsensical ...
are you implying that you take Shelley's poem to be nonsensical?
"I don't see much sense in that," said Rabbit.

"No," said Pooh humbly, "there isn't. But there was going to be when I began it. It's just that something happened to it along the way."
Cadrache
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Posted 08/24/09 - 02:56 PM:
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#62
Hmm... I used the wrong terminology and didn't notice I missed a whole section of what I was going to write. Very sorry. (blame it on multi-tasking and not re-reading my work in full.)

grin

To me there is a difference between semantics and the usage of reference. What you wrote Brainpharte reminds me more of reference then semantics.

With reference, there seems to be a more direct 1:1 relationship between experience and public knowledge - which evolves a usage of language which does not correspond neccessarily to the rules of language.

With semantics you don't neccessarily need the relationship between experience in public knowledge. What you use is primarily the relationship between language and public knowledge. Some would claim nuance in this section.


Hopefully that cleared it up a bit?



Edited by Cadrache on 08/24/09 - 03:04 PM
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion.
_____________________________________________

Truth is want. - The internal state of matters.

Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.
Cadrache
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Posted 08/24/09 - 03:10 PM:
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#63
It depends on the point of view. Which single word do you want to derive your understanding from for any writing?

Traditionally we start at the first word. We arrive at the end. To a certain degree, if we reversed the process we normally see roughly the same reasoning for each line of statements, however somewhat reverse.

If you derive the meaning from any statement from a group of statements, the same meaning for this statement here, when read from bottom to top - should have roughly the same semantic or referenced meaning as before.

With Shelley's poem, you don't. Instead of references to 'man'... you end up with references to nature. (which personifies nature itself.)

NB: For clarity's sake, this is derived slightly from "Promethius Rising" and the function of how that ol' anthropologist derived the differentiation of the usage of "He is a good dog." by a native american, and how it doesn't translate to any semantic or referencial English understanding.

Edited by Cadrache on 08/24/09 - 03:15 PM. Reason: Added NB notation.
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion.
_____________________________________________

Truth is want. - The internal state of matters.

Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.
brainpharte
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Posted 08/24/09 - 06:51 PM:
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#64
I took a look at Prometheus Rising on Wiki and Amazon.

My Crackpot Alarm almost blew itself apart.
"I don't see much sense in that," said Rabbit.

"No," said Pooh humbly, "there isn't. But there was going to be when I began it. It's just that something happened to it along the way."
Cadrache
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Posted 08/25/09 - 10:27 AM:
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#65
I know! But it is such an interesting read. If you exclude most of his conclusions, you do find alot of interesting tools blended in.

The comparison of Freud and Jung was definately unique, though I completely disagree with his conclusion. (he was using the parent/ child example.)

The idea that public knowledge is not much more then enforced imprinting of ideas was striking as well.

Again, all those are not really gems - and mostly land in the crackpot area since his writing was more personal observation then scientific observation. (or a method that would be publicly accepted.)

The real gem was 'good dog.'

What are the definitions of good dog that you know? In reference to "That is a good dog."
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion.
_____________________________________________

Truth is want. - The internal state of matters.

Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.
Banno
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Posted 08/26/09 - 02:58 AM:
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#66
There was an Old Man of Dumbree,
Who taught little owls to drink tea;
For he said, "To eat mice
Is not proper and nice,"
That amiable Man of Dumbree

Davidson: We make maximum sense of the words and thoughts of others when we interpret in a way that optimizes agreement.
Russel Morris: There's a meaning there, but the meaning there doesn't really mean a thing...
Ned: Such is life
ragus
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Posted 08/26/09 - 04:31 AM:
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#67
Cadrache wrote

I know! But it is such an interesting read.


I get the feeling that I need to re-read my copy.
"A word in your ear is like an untethered goat in a field" Wittigenstein
Cadrache
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Posted 08/26/09 - 10:01 AM:
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#68
The last 5 or 6 pages maybe.... Most everything else is dis-jointed.

Haven't heard that one in a while Banno. But that is a rather hard one to derive where the nonsense comes from isn't it?
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion.
_____________________________________________

Truth is want. - The internal state of matters.

Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.
sevenoaks
Initiate

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Posted 08/31/09 - 03:11 AM:
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#69
Schlitz wrote:
The timeless example:

"What is to be investigated is being only and--nothing else; being alone and further--nothing;
solely being, and beyond being-nothing. What about this Nothing? . . . Does the Nothing exist
only because the Not, i.e. the Negation, exists? Or is it the other way around? Does Negation
and the Not exist only because the Nothing exists? . . . We assert: the Nothing is prior to the
Not and the Negation. . . . Where do we seek the Nothing? How do we find the Nothing. . . .
We know the Nothing. . . . Anxiety reveals the Nothing. . . . That for which and because of
which we were anxious, was 'really'--nothing. Indeed: the Nothing itself--as such--was present.
. . . What about this Nothing?--The Nothing itself nothings."


Negation has nothing to do with nothing, because it’s the opposite of approval, something existing and equally meaningful despite being contradictory. Cartesian coordinate system has positive and negative values. Negative values correspond to negation in language. O is nothing, but even 0 is mandatory in creating a system of tangible values, in the case of the coordinate system, positive and negative. That’s how the whole universe work, atom and gravitation, attraction and repulsion.

So, to avoid nonsense three values are needed positive negative and 0. Whatever 0 is, it is not nonsense, because without 0 nothing else would work.

Cadrache
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Posted 09/01/09 - 06:19 PM:
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#70
Oi... I need to make a correction. It wasn't Robert Anton Wilson - Prometheus Rising. It is Robert M. Pirsig - Lila.

I was reading both books at the same time and sort of got the names mixed up.

The information for 'good dog' can be found in that book, and not the one by Mr. Wilson.
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion.
_____________________________________________

Truth is want. - The internal state of matters.

Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.
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