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my thoughts on solving the problem of evil
Please analize my arguments i'd like to know if this is valid

my thoughts on solving the problem of evil

Thechad
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Posted 11/23/05 - 02:51 PM: Subject: my thoughts on solving the problem of evil	#1
Sorry i know its long and its actualy a paper i wrote I am a college student who is very interested in studying and gaining knolege on religous belefes Id like to find out if my views are valid or worth expanding upon. The following is a paper I wrote this morning actualy attemting to solve the problem of evil. Dont be afraid to critisize or pick me apart I am posting this to see what people think thank you If God is all-good he will destroy evil. If God is all-powerful he can destroy evil. Evil is not destroyed; it still exists. Hence there is no such god. This is the problem of evil it is one of the main arguments used to disprove the existence of the theistic god. It has been a heated topic of discussion and argument for many years. Attacking the problem of evil is not an easy feat and only seems more difficult as I researched the topic more deeply. I eventually got to a point where I have been reading endlessly more out of curiosity and interest than writing a paper. I came up with many ways to attack the problem and also many ways to discredit my arguments. The last argument is my own personal belief it’s more abstract than the others but far more powerful. It’s now completely apparent why it’s been such a topic of great discussion for so long. 1. God is omniscient and omnipotent all knowing and all powerful the most perfect being. We as humans are finite creatures God is infinite in his knowledge. How can we possibly know that true evil exists? Really we can’t. In the end we know almost nothing compared to Gods greatness. This is why I ‘m not convinced that what we understand as evil, really is. “Learn from your mistakes” is a great way to explain my feelings I cant tell how many times I have made mistakes learned from it and been better off in the end. Another way to explain it is breaking a bone it always ends up stronger when mended. Many of my closest friends started as enemies. Great things a lot of times happen only because of bad things happening first. Working towards something very hard and coming up against many obstacles with frustration and suffering brings us to much better traits such as patience and courage besides that when the goal is achieved it is much more uplifting and fulfilling. What we perceive as evil could be the same. God knows the beginning of life the end and everything between we are blind to anything that happens in the future and many things that have happened in the past. Many horrible diseases have devastated people even small innocent children have suffered extremely painful deaths due to sickness I could see this as evil. On the flip side before people were alive to corrupt the world animals with no divine spark suffered agonizing deaths with nobody to show any remorse or sympathy for them so does that mean that the suffering we endure isn’t related to the moral quality of our lives? A caterpillar changing into a butterfly breaking out of its cocoon will die if it’s assisted but be strong if it suffers to get out. Also with out the suffering of many people we could not be close to the medical knowledge we have today. What if true evil has been destroyed and what we see now is truly not evil at all. It is said that God is morally perfect and the end of what we see as evil would make the world and the lives we live much worse off in the long run. To sum it up God would be doing us a great injustice and harming us if he put an end to every thing bad happening. 2. (a somewhat weaker argument). My second argument criticizes the overwhelming power God has. I am by no means trying to say that God is not the most powerful entity however many things which are told in the bible don’t really show that God is as powerful as we view him. In creation of the world God lets the earth partially grow its self. The great flood was from rain not from anywhere but earth. The flood is ended with wind. Wind is not an uncommon phenomenon. God chooses to send a human, Moses, to free “his people” who were enslaved in Egypt. Most of the time angels are the ones doing the work many times disguised as humans. The number of miracles that have happened for God to communicate with us is overwhelmed by dreams of Gods will. “Gods battles” or religious wars take place with human people. Why would God not strike the enemy down with his wrath instead of letting many of his most dedicated followers die in battle? Not to take any credit away from the miracle of Jesus’ birth from the Virgin Mary but why would the all powerful God want his own and only son to be the offspring of an imperfect and finite human? Finally why the Bible the most holy text written about God would be printed and most likely misinterpreted by many humans who because they are not perfect as God is, could botch the whole thing? The only reason I can come up with for all of this is that God is not as powerful as we see him and cannot banish evil completely. Argument 3. When God created humans we were destined to have free will. God is morally perfect which would force him to give us complete free will. It would be immoral to create a world where people are slaves to the path set up for them. It would also be impossible to stop a person who is under there own complete free will from doing something that is immoral or evil. So since us as humans are gifted with free will even as God is omnipotent he can not make a person do what is right. He can only nudge them in the right direction. This is why evil exists, because God is limited only by his self and his own laws that means he is still limited. For this reason God shot him self in the foot and since God is never wrong he can’t contradict him self to abolish evil. Going slightly off track I read a very interesting article in which the author has a very unique and thoughtful point of view which I found very relevant and thought provoking. The author explains evil as if it was separated into units the author states that if the world has a billion units of evil and they are uniformly distributed over trillions of people whose lives are otherwise extremely satisfying and ecstatically happy it is not as easy to see a serious problem of evil. But if on the other hand the billion units of natural evil fell upon a single innocent person and produced a life that was throughout one of extraordinarily intense pain then surly there would be a very serious problem of evil. 4.(somewhat an argument) Upon first reading this article I thought to my self well that’s stupid however I then thought about it for a good half hour and realized how incredibly accurate it is. This fully explains why the world has people like you and I who sin however it is for the most part looked at as a normal part of our day. For instance name one person in our every day lives who has never taken the lords name in vain. (I can’t do it and I’m willing to bet you can’t either.) But it doesn’t take away from the fact that it is a sin and sins are an act against God and an act against God is evil. This is what I think the author means by all of us getting one of the billion small units of evil. I explain the second half of the eye opening article with the existence of supremely evil people like Adolph Hitler. He was the person who drew the short straw and ended up with the billion units of evil to his self. Hitler went way past the simple uttering of the lords title in front of not so nice word. Genocide and torture is how his intense evil showed through. Hitler died far earlier than his life expectancy. This should be a clear sign that God is battling evil. It also shows that god cannot control a person because each one of us including Hitler has free will. It also proves that god is once again limited in power and human armies had to go after Hitler as his wrath. Hitlers’ life was so consumed by evil and sin that when it came to an end even then in his final breath he accumulated one last sin to add to the list by killing his self. In Adolfs’ case evil was so built up in him that evil consumed him and ended his life. 5. (This ones kick ass) My strongest argument from the problem of evil is called the no best of all possible worlds’ argument I find it more accurate in my version of the nearly cryptically difficult to understand argument to name it The argument of infinity. This is in my mind the strongest argument I have to offer to solve the problem. Putting what’s in my head on paper is difficult but I’ll give it a shot. This argument suggests that God created not just our world but an infinite number of existences this is possible because since god is infinite, god exists in an infinite number of dimensions. My belief is that because infinity never stops god would never stop producing a more effective and almost pure world for us to live in. I believe in each dimension God solves the problems from the past one. Since Gods knowledge is infinite and never stops God is constantly is able to create a better world. This flat out solves even an extended version of the problem of evil. EXAMPLE. 1) Letting a child die a hard suffering painful death by cancer is a very serious wrong doing.* Responce- God did not let the child die he had no power to save the child in this dimension. God will save the child in the next existence. 2) Our world contains children who die a painful death by cancer.* Responce- Each existence is a lab rat for the next one. 3) An omnipotent being could prevent evil things from happening if he knows what’s going to occur.* God uses his power and knowledge to solve the problem in creating the next dimension. 4) An omniscient being would know an evil event is going to occur* God knows what will occur in the next dimension as he rests on the 7th day of creation to observe what he should change for the next one. 5) If a being allows something to take place that he knows is about to happen and which he knows he could prevent then that being intentionally allows the event to occur.* God does not know that the event will occur until it happens and he can solve it in the next existence. Therefore: 6) If there is an omnipotent and omniscient being then there are cases where he intentionally allows children to die painful deaths* Not true God instills his presence in the next world once he can do something about it. 7) In many such cases no right making characteristics that we are aware of apply to the death of the child, and also are sufficiently serious to counterbalance the relevant wrong making characteristic.* I don’t believe god has the power to change the current world, only to toss in improvements in the next one. Therefore: 8) If there is an omnipotent and omniscient being, then there are specific cases of such a being’s intentionally allowing children to undergo lingering suffering and death due to cancer, that have wrong making properties such that there are no right making characteristics that we are aware of that apply to the death and that are also sufficiently serious to counterbalance the relevant wrong making characteristics.* Wrong altogether God is an all good being with perfect moral statue his power is used in the next dimension of existence to solve the problem. Therefore it is likely that: 9) If there is an omnipotent and omniscient being then there are specific cases of such a being’s intentionally allowing children to die of cancer, that have wrong making properties such that there are no right making characteristics that we are aware of that apply to the case in question, and that are also sufficiently serious to counterbalance the relevant wrong making characteristics.* This is because God sees into the current existence and this is how he sees the future of the next existence so as he creates the next world he makes the necessary changes. God is still all good he does not intentionally kill children. 10) An action is morally wrong, all things considered, if it has a wrong making characteristic that is not counterbalanced by any right making characteristics.* This statement is true. Therefore: 11) If there is an omnipotent and omniscient being, then there are specific cases of such a being’s intentionally allowing children to die a painful death of cancer* This is wrong God solves each problem as he creates the next world. God is a morally perfect being. Therefore: 12) If there is an omnipotent and omniscient being, then that being both intentionally refrains from performing certain actions where it is morally wrong to do so, all things considered, and knows that he is doing so, is not morally perfect.* Gods morals never falter god is all powerful to change the next world as he creates it not to change the one created. Therefore: 15) There is no omnipotent, omniscient and morally perfect being.* This would only true if every thing above it was true which is not the case. 16) If God exists, then he is, by definition an omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect being.* As God most definitly is. Therefore: 17) God does not exist.* God does exist because the conclusions reached in forming problem of evil do not take into account the true nature of God. God exists alone self sufficient completely outside of what we are able to understand. We still see evil because God can not change the world once it’s created. Where god is all knowing and all powerful, is in the creating of the next world. I believe it would make sense that god creates a world in 6 days just as the bible states our world was created. The 7th day he rests and sees the beginning to the end of the existence he created this is where he gains the knowledge for the next world. I also believe this makes great sense to describe what heaven is I don’t believe a spirit travels to the same place god is because that would not place god by his self as it is made clear in theology. My belief is that the next dimension or possibly even Gods newest creation is where a spirit goes to be reincarnated into a better world.(Makes a lot of sense huh)

periculum
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Posted 11/24/05 - 02:41 PM:	#2
You have some interesting thoughts, and I'll address them as you've posted them. To Argument 1: Your argument counters the concept that god is omnipotent, for it puts forth the proposition that god would be incapable of eliminating all evil in every shape and size without doing us alterior injustice. If god can do anything, then he can do ANYTHING, including create a perfect paradise in which evil does not exist and people do not require it to grow or reach a state of "greater good." To Argument 2: In this one you admit he lacks omnipotence. As the whole debate is between the incompatibility of omnipotence, omnibenevolence, and the existence of evil, by eliminating any single component you eliminate the controversy. Now the question only remains is whether or not god still counts as a deity without omnipotence? Is such a being worthy of worship? To Argument 3: Ah, evil is caused by freewill. A very interesting proposition that has been brought up by many before. "God isn't flawed, we are." But this still detracts from his omnipotence by stating that he can't create beings incapable of evil without them also being denied freewill. Also, this can be proven false, to a slight degree, by looking at the people who have already lived, such as saints and jesus (if you concede that he was human while on earth). These people, as humans, had freewill and freely chose to live a righteous and good life. Why can't god create all people like that with such preference? Freewill and a world without evil are not mutually exclusive, it's simply an alien existence to this one which we have a difficult time comprehending. Then, if you throw in the concept of omniscience (which isn't immediately part of the debate) you end up questioning god's omnibenevolence as the creation of evil people who choose to sin, with the foreknowledge that they are going to choose to do so, is an evil act be god. Especially if he then chooses the sadistic practice of sending such sinners to eternal damnation having known full and well that would be their fate upon their creation. To Argument 4: I don't see the relevance of these statements to the debate. You're stating that God has generated a set presubscribed amount of evil to exist in the universe and that this evil is sometimes unfairly concentrated into certain individuals, but this in no way touches on the concept of rationalizing omnipotence, omnibenevolence, and the existence of freewill. To Argument 5: This is a unique and intelligent approach to the problem. It does detract from the idea that god is infallible, because you are basically saying that we are a mistake as god learns to create a better universe. This works well if you also detract from god's omnipotence and state that he is bound by himself and unable to contradict what he has preperscribed, explaining why he doesn't merely update this universe instead of creating another one. So, the question as to why there is evil in the world is answered by god made a mistake and is unable to correct it, but he will learn from it and make a better universe next time. However, there still remains the question as to why evil continues in this universe. If this was a mistake and god does not want us to suffer, and he is unable to stop our suffering while this universe exists, then wouldn't he put a stop to it? Take up his children and destroy this universe rather than allowing them to suffer. Of course, this is what is destined in the book of Revelations, but the question still remains as to why it hasn't already occured. Isn't allowing it to continue an evil act by god as well? He should've stopped it as soon as he realized it was a mistake (which with omniscience would've been before it was even created). So, this argument destroys many aspects of god. He is not infallible, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, or omniscient by this argument, and this raises the question as to whether he is worthy of the tittle of deity and worhsip thereof. Again, a very unique and intelligent approach, but not your strongest argument.
"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible god's out there, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

keda
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Posted 11/24/05 - 03:32 PM:	#3
The problem of evil is a strawman. I've read trough your arguments and consider your first the best of them, containing some good points, but there are some things I don't agree with. The four following arguments denies God omnipotense in one way or the other, all of which I disagree with. Many point at innocent suffering as an evil - this is not true, but in fact the scripture says that it is a good thing because it strengtens you. You've got this point in #1 right. What is evil then? Evil is people sinning. So if people sin, why isn't God striking them down? Answer: God is merciful - he lets his sun shine and rain fall on sinners and good people alike. But isn't God suppose to destroy evil? Yes, but at the moment people who can be saved are still evil, and should be purified thereof, and it is because of God's mercy that that they are alive, and God would be less good if he stroke them down. All this is consistent with that God is good independent of experience, moreover that he is transcendent our experience, which is why the problem of evil is a strawman. Beware every false gospel that predicate a God's goodness is due to consequences. In #3 you argue that God created us with free will which is something God's moral perfection forces him to do, thus limiting him from interfering with our will. Consider that God is morally perfect because he choose to do exactly that, wherefore nothing is in fact limiting him from doing otherwise. In #4 you argue that Adolph Hitler ended up with a billion units of evil - the only way I see someone can end up with even one unit of evil is to consciously act to do it of their own free will, not by drawing the short straw. Free will also as shown earlier does not limit God's omnipotense.
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