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Music

Lögr
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Posted 12/26/06 - 08:55 PM: Subject: Music	#1
I'd like to discuss the topic of music. Perhaps the subject of physical movement in relation to music. Or other topics like...the great Mozart very rarely used the key of D minor for it is the key (his words) of struggle and tragedy. Some examples are his Concerto in D minor KV 466 or his Requeim mass in D minor. Why is the key of D minor universally interpreted along the lines of "struggle and tragedy". What is it, in the brain, that happens that these connections are made when listening to music? Music is the greatest of the arts and hearing is the greatest of the 6 senses (perhaps there's more... ). Perhaps this is because you can hear long before you can see or smell or taste. (In the mother's womb) I write all this rather haphazardly. The topic is very general. Any thoughts on any of this?
The man of knowledge must be able not only to love his enemies but also to hate his friends. - Friedrich Nietzsche, Ecce Homo, Foreword German philosopher (1844 - 1900)

killerofgod
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Posted 12/28/06 - 09:55 PM:	#2
I don't know much about the subject of physical motion it's relation to music, sorry. Dalcroze Eurhythmics has been used, however, to teach children how to keep tempo and rhythm when more traditional methods fail. Also, I don't know much about the science behind it but I do believe that certain keys have certain feelings to them. Once, in high school, my teacher played the beginning of Beethoven's Moonlight in the key of c minor instead of c# minor (its a long story). Anyway, as soon as I recognized the piece, I knew it was in the wrong key. And I don't even come close to having absolute pitch. Have you heard of Alexander Scriabin? I'll bet you'd be interested in his ideas of color-tonality. He believed that every note, instrument, and chord had a specific color, idea, or feeling. This goes far beyond what most people claim to be able to hear, and there are volumes of text written on it. you should check it out.
Just my own meaningless thoughts and opinions.

Lögr
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Posted 12/28/06 - 10:12 PM:	#3
I shall check that out immediatly after finishing this post. "Also, I don't know much about the science behind it but I do believe that certain keys have certain feelings to them." I believe the word "feelings" is the wrong word, but it's on the right track. Mozart, the greatest musician and composer to live, was able to pick out these different "feelings" pieces were written in specific keys for certain reasons. I compose a bit and I do find certain things have to be in a certain key, but unlike Mozart...I find it hard to pin point why. Anyway, notice that most hymns are written in Ab major. Ab major, Db major, C# minor, E minor, d minor, I find these examples to be very distinctive among each other and other keys. I did at one time have a short conversation with a man that was looking into the subject you spoke of. That each key has a color. I believe that he stated that this is more prominent in children and as you age and develope you...grow farther and farther from recognizing them the way children do. There was some product I believe he was going to purchase that was supposed to teach you this or something...it was for ear training. I believe it is meant to teach you to recognize different keys by a color and you are supposed to attain the perfect ear and be able to easily, with great proficiency, differentiate each note/pitch from the other. Anyway, why is it that a minor chord has the....'sigh' "feelings" of...say sad, angry, negative feelings? Why is it that major chords are the opposite? What is the psychology behind that? Is there any explanation?
The man of knowledge must be able not only to love his enemies but also to hate his friends. - Friedrich Nietzsche, Ecce Homo, Foreword German philosopher (1844 - 1900)

armchairphilosopher
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Posted 12/29/06 - 03:30 AM:	#4
Considering the evolution of humans, I like to think that music evolved in us through the voice and communication of emotion with tone. Low tones are authoritarian, high ones excited, there is obviously therefore recognisable tones for melancholy 'spirits', joyful etc. Harmony brings a feeling of security. Consider (an admittedly tired example) the scenario of frightened, supersticious beings huddled in a cave in a thunderstorm. To then have them sing in harmony reminds them of their strength in number, their unity and helps bring peaceful feelings, especially to children. It would be calming to do so. Kind of similar to a dog's (wolf's) calling/howling, when they know where the rest of the pack are, they feel satisfied, I presume. Even people who are not very musical, either learned or talented, will hum and sing a cheery tune when they are happy, 'Dee, dee, dee, dee, dee' in a high pitch, which conveys to others their good mood. Slaves are well known for singing to improve how they felt, low and somber songs (at least the key/pitch), although the best known songs are those that passed on information about how to escape to freedom, but that is another matter. That's my theory, but as most who know me on this board will know, I always cite evolutionary, biological, and physical answers to just about everything. I could go too far sometimes.
Where there is deprivation, there will be people who blame the deprived for their own circumstances, especially where there is a history of oppression that the current descendents of the oppressors do not want to face up to. Ever heard of 'White man's guilt'? Humans also tend towards that which is most convenient.

Lögr
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Posted 12/29/06 - 08:18 AM:	#5
In the evolution theory though...that would be to say that music has evolved through the ages. That more primitive humans had more primitive music. Yet ethnomusicologists like John Blacking have found that music of these cultures are not this way. The rhythms, he has stated, are so complex that they can not be repeated. Some evolutionary theories hypothesize that our music is the decendent of plain bird song...but this has also been stamped on a bit. Music is species specific. Like religion and language. There are supposedly three components that are necessary to constitute music. Melody, rhthym, and harmony. Also I would include organization (as would Stravinsky). They're teaching chimps to read, but they can not recreate music. Why?
The man of knowledge must be able not only to love his enemies but also to hate his friends. - Friedrich Nietzsche, Ecce Homo, Foreword German philosopher (1844 - 1900)

armchairphilosopher
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Posted 12/29/06 - 10:36 AM:	#6
Chimps and man diverged in evolutionary terms a long time ago, although they are similar, their methods of communication evolved seperately, tone is different to chimps than it is to humans. Other great apes have different methods of communication, the glance of a Gorilla is very significant to them, the ability of Orangutans to learn sign language is pretty specific to them, by comparison the Chimpanzee's communication and ability to learn communication methods is primitive, although Chimps can learn some signs. I am not certain of this, but I imagine many dogs can recognise as many if not more spoken commands than a chimp can. Complex mathematics are involved in songs/pieces of music and a big brain is required to follow it. A big brain is also required to create it. Some birds have highly evolved communication abilities, as is demonstrated by how many words some birds can be taught to recognise or replicate. The Lire bird (not certain of spelling) can accurately replicate just about anything it hears, from a camera's click, a falling tree, a car alarm, chain-saw to any other birds complete songs. When you say that music is species specific, I take it you mean it is specific to humans? I agree, and while it cannot be proven, I believe that communication and music evolved together with early humans, who evolved separately from other great apes, although they have common ancestors. Rhythms are patterns, mathematical patterns. Songs are mathematical patterns, and pieces of music are mathematical patterns, which can be useful as learning tools to humans. It is easier (more pleasant) to learn a song that contains a lot of information than it is to learn a straight series of facts. Playing classical music to unborn children in the womb has shown some signs of aiding their intellectual development. Small children prefer simple rhythms in music that they can follow, the same way that they are attracted to simply decorated brightly coloured things. People who immerse themselves in music find that it becomes a journey, usually heading towards more complex music. Alpha Rhythms and their effect on the human mind are another sign (IMO) of an evolutionary aspect to music, from primitive tribal beginnings.
Where there is deprivation, there will be people who blame the deprived for their own circumstances, especially where there is a history of oppression that the current descendents of the oppressors do not want to face up to. Ever heard of 'White man's guilt'? Humans also tend towards that which is most convenient.

InTheory
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Posted 12/29/06 - 11:36 AM: Subject: Music	#7
I have found music to be the highest form of expression. I feel music is the greatest gift given to us as human beings, and when connected to it we are more connected to our spiritual source. Its our universal language, I am devoted to Jazz, I find it be the most creative form. The best way to train your ear, and the only form of music so free and speaks indivduality. There is nothing like a group of musicians getting together improvising, solely working in their own zone of expression, and complimenting each other at the same time. That is priceless!

Lögr
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Posted 12/29/06 - 11:48 AM:	#8
Armchairphilospher, your whole theory of evolution is in question though. It is hard to argue something with it, when your argument is based on something arguable. Anyway, there's a topic we could discuss. Why is it that Classical Music, when played to unborn children in the womb, has been shown to aid in their intellectual developement? Concerning jazz, creativity is an opinion, most "free" I suppose, invidual among other types of music is agreeable, but I personally hate jazz. No offense, I just...can't stand it and am not really sure why. "Classical Music" is the most highly evolved form of music. Every style of music has something to offer and difference is the main driving force of today's music. But I personally cling to the Romantic period, the great composers Beethoven, Chopin, etc...Mozart was the greatest composer ever but he was restricted to the Classical period. His piano pieces you will find still have the lingering influences of the baroque period. Many pieces I find mechanical and demand more expression. His orchestral pieces stray from that and his orchestral pieces are what set him above all other composers. His piano concerto in D minor for piano and orchestra has a very apparent Romantic style to it. This piece really shows how deep the roots of the Romantic period dug into the classical era. But anyway, this great music...the "classical music". What is the difference between this and other styles of music? Why is it that "classical music" is used for unborn children?
The man of knowledge must be able not only to love his enemies but also to hate his friends. - Friedrich Nietzsche, Ecce Homo, Foreword German philosopher (1844 - 1900)

armchairphilosopher
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Posted 12/29/06 - 12:29 PM:	#9
Apologies Lögr, but I said classical music when in fact I know that the study referred to one composer only, and I couldn't remember who it was exactly. I think it was W. A. Mozart, but cannot be certain. This site I found using Google states that it is a Myth, I suppose I should be more careful not to believe what I read in the mainstream media. http://www.partnershipforlearning.org/article.asp... This link describes where the 'factoid' came from: http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/departments/element... At the end of that article the writer at least conceded that learning music can boost IQ scores in children. And this page includes a statement similar to the one in the article I read in the British Press. "Play music for your baby (Mozart's music has been found to stimulate the same neurons in the brain that are later used for mathematics)" http://www.envisagedesign.com/ohbaby/smart.html Unfortunately they did not give a source for the assertion.
Where there is deprivation, there will be people who blame the deprived for their own circumstances, especially where there is a history of oppression that the current descendents of the oppressors do not want to face up to. Ever heard of 'White man's guilt'? Humans also tend towards that which is most convenient.

coolazice
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Posted 12/30/06 - 01:34 AM:	#10
There is no classical. There is no jazz. Compare Mozart's 40th symphony to schoenberg's pierrot lunaire. Compare both to Erik Satie, then to Wagner, then to Dufay's missa l'homme armee. Sure, there are similarites between all of these, but far more differences, I think. Take Miles Davis' Bitches' Brew. Take his 50s collection. Then compare those to duke ellington, charles mingus, thelonious monk. Then to Benny Goodman. There are many different styles of jazz, and they all sound radically different. The way to get into a particular style of music is to sample the diversity and find the thing you like. It's highly unlikely that you actually dislike a genre as huge as jazz. I used to think I didn't like hip-hop until I heard a bit more. The same for country music. To my ears, Debussy sounds more like Bill Evans than Beethoven. Bach sounds more like John Coltrane than Mozart. Re: the main question, I think that part of it is innate pattern recognition, according to the rules of mathematical sound, and the other part is cultural custom. Chinese music uses a major 3rd but it never seems happy as such. Javanese music uses a min6th in a different way than Western music, and Indian music is microtonal, but I never have the problems with it that I have with modern classical microtonal. It's all about opening your ears. That's why the babies get smarter - they already know how to atune themselves into things outside their ordinary experience.
One of the greatest weaknesses in human nature is to be dogmatic about issues of which we are ignorant. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio/Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

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